The Arminian Dilemma

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by The Biblicist, Dec 19, 2013.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,114
    Likes Received:
    206
    The Bible clearly and explicitly spells out in no uncertain terms that God demanded of men what He knew they were not able to perform and then justly condemned them. This not a matter of speculative philosphy what God "could" or "would" "might" or "may" do but what he actually DID and IS DOING right now. Eternal salation or damnation does not change this one iota but are evidential proofs that God has done this already as both are merely consequential to this indisputable fact.

    I realize that Skandelon will just keep repeating his denial as he has no other option, as admission to this Biblical principle simply destroys his whole system of intepretation.

    Therefore, I will proceed to just prove this principle from God's Word:

    1. God obligated Israel to keep His commandments

    Le 20:8 And ye shall keep my statutes, and do them: I am the LORD which sanctify you.

    Le 20:22 Ye shall therefore keep all my statutes, and all my judgments, and do them: that the land, whither I bring you to dwell therein, spue you not out.


    2. God knew full well they were unable to keep this obligation even when He first obligated them to do so

    Deut. 5:29 O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!

    Rom. 3:19 ¶ Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
    20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.


    Jn. 7:19 Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?

    Rom. 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

    James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.



    3. This failure is condemned as sin under penalty of death

    1 Jn. 3:4 ¶ Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

    James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

    Rom. 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

    Rom. 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; .

    Jn. 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

    Note: No one is born into this world as a believer and so all men are condemned already. To be condemned by the law is to be defined as SINNERS worthy of death.


    Potential future salvation does not change or deny this principle. No Post-Salvation can overturn or deny that FALLEN MAN was obligated by God to do what He knew they were without ability to do and yet justly condemned. Fallen men still have the same inability to be subject to the law of God, neither indeed can they be and they are still condemned justly.

    Rom. 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

    The only interpretation of Romans 5:12-15 that can JUSTIFY God obligating FALLEN HUMANITY to do what He knows they are unable to do and condemn them as sinners deserving death is our interpretation. Skandelon's system cannot reconcile this principle with his system and so he is forced to deny it exists.
     
  2. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    Why do you stop short at Deu 5:29? Why don't you read two verses later?

    Deu 5:31 But as for thee, stand thou here by me, and I will speak unto thee all the commandments, and the statutes, and the judgments, which thou shalt teach them, that they may do them in the land which I give them to possess it.

    This doesn't sound like God is saying the Jews were unable to keep his commandments to me, it sounds like the very opposite, that God is going to give Moses all his commandments so that he may teach the people, THAT THEY MAY DO THEM.

    That certainly sounds like God believes they can do the commandments to me.

    Now, that said, the scriptures are clear that no man has, or ever will keep all the commandments except Jesus Christ, but that is not addressing ability, but merely the pure fact that no man has ever kept all the commandments. The two should not be confused, they are entirely different issues.

    I have never jumped off a ten story building, but that does not prove I am unable to do so.
     
  3. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    Verse 1 of Deuteronomy 5 also argues against your view;

    Deu 5:1 And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them.

    Sure doesn't sound like Moses believed the Jews were unable to keep the commandments to me, it sounds like Moses believed they could.
     
  4. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,114
    Likes Received:
    206
    This simply reinforces point number one in my post. This verse merely states OBLIGATION not ability. They are being told their obligation that they "may" (not "can") do these things. Without being told their obligation they would have no idea what God demanded of them.
     
  5. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,114
    Likes Received:
    206

    Again, can any Arminian provide any evidence that God did not obligate Israel to keep His law according to how he defined keeping it - sinless perfection - knowing perfectly well they were incapable but yet justly condemned them as SINNERS for failing/coming short????


    Remember, salvation or the lack thereof is a FUTURE reaction to this indisputable completed fact which in no way changes it as a previous completed event, but rather is the necessary prerequisite for salvation even to be considered.
     
    #5 The Biblicist, Dec 19, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 19, 2013
  6. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    The word "may" throws a monkey wrench into your interpretation. This verse is saying that God will teach them through Moses so that they are able to keep the commandments. So that they "may do them".

    Your interpretation is forced and unnatural.
     
  7. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    I have, and you are trying to ignore it.
     
  8. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,114
    Likes Received:
    206
    That text says no such thing. God gave the law TO MOSES and Moses was to give it to Israel so that they "may" know their obligations to God.

    Furthermore, you argument demands obedience to the law is possible but the Word of God from Genesis to Revelation completetely repudiates that claim:

    1. Paul said that NO FLESH in "all the world" could keep the Law - Rom. 3:9-20

    2. Jesus said that NO JEW kept the law - Jn. 7:19

    3. James defined what keeping the law entailed - James 2:10

    4. Paul said that all men have "come short" of what the Law demands - Rom. 3:23.

    Your reasoning is only possible if the definition of sin and keeping the law is denied, changed or redefined.
     
  9. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,114
    Likes Received:
    206
    You have not! Your response is just PITTING one Scripture (Deut. 5:29) against another Scripture. Your response is a repudiation of what the Scriptures teach from Genesus to Revelation which denies any flesh can keep God's Law. Your response perverts the obvious application of the text that God gave it to Moses to give it to Israel that they "may" BY COVENANT COMMITTMENT to keep when they came into the Land. You are actually teaching it is possible to justified by the Law as merely KEEPING the law by any fallen man will justify them before God. That is repudiated in every book of the Bible.
     
  10. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,114
    Likes Received:
    206
    Again, can any Arminian provide any evidence that God did not obligate Israel to keep His law according to how he defined keeping it - sinless perfection - knowing perfectly well they were incapable but yet justly condemned them as SINNERS for failing/coming short????

    Remember, salvation or the lack thereof is a FUTURE reaction to this indisputable completed fact which in no way changes it as a previous completed event.

    So far, the only response is that fallen men can obey the Old Covenant and thus be justified by works before God (Van) when the scriptures repudiate this claim.
     
  11. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,114
    Likes Received:
    206
    I don't even think you realize what you are claiming! This is the giving of the Ten Commandments as the OLD COVENANT. Israel in this same chapter has entered into this COVENANT relationship with God claiming they can do, keep the OLD COVENANT. You are arguing that fallen man CAN keep the Old Covenant for justification beause any man that can KEEP this covenant IS justifiied before God.

    However, the scripture writers repudiate your claim:

    Jn. 7:19 Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?


    Ac 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

    Rom. 3:19 ¶ Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
    20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.



    Ga 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

    However, your interpretation of Deuteronomy 5 and similiar texts demands the very opposite as anyone capable of keeping the law IS justified in His sight.

    Readers, this is what Arminians are forced to do to avoid this dilemma. They are force to embrace justification by works of the law which is a complete repudiation and denial of Jesus Christ and the cross.
     
    #11 The Biblicist, Dec 19, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 19, 2013
  12. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2010
    Messages:
    8,121
    Likes Received:
    0
    I don't know how you do it bro as I don't see that any of these will ever get it but you keep trying. :type:

    Winman and several others here hold to that false teaching of ability. It all boils down to their errant views of man, sin, God and Scripture. One of the biggest issues with winman is that he knows what the Scriptures say but NOT what they mean.

    It is crystal clear that God has given us commands that He knows full well we cannot keep, nor do we have the ability. The ten commandments being one example, loving the Lord your God with all ones heart, mind, and soul, and neighbor as ones self being another. I'm certain some here feel they've also done this when asked via their inherent ability.
     
  13. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,114
    Likes Received:
    206
    Van has embrace the false doctrine of justification by works of the Law in order to escape this dilemma. He does not realize (hopefully) that Deuteronomy 5 is the record of Israel entering into the OLD COVENANT and claiming they can and will KEEP THE LAW. He argues that fallen man can keep the OLD COVENANT when every New Testament writer repudiates this claim by Van.
     
  14. Skandelon

    Skandelon
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2003
    Messages:
    9,638
    Likes Received:
    0
    Just one small problem with this premise. Not all men are condemned.

    "...there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus" -Rom 8:1

    So, how can you argue that God has condemned all men for not fulfilling the demands of the law if not all men are condemned for that?

    The question is why are some condemned and others are not? What is the one distinguishing characteristic between the law breakers in hell and the ones in heaven? UNBELIEF

    So, the question is NOT whether man is able to fulfill the demands of the law or not, because that is not what determines if they are condemned or not. The question is whether man can believe in God. Can man trust in Christ who fulfilled the law for him?

    The truth is that "God has bound all men over to disobedience so He might show mercy to all men." -Rm 11:32

    God is perfectly just to condemn all men for breaking his law, but that is NOT what God has chosen to do. Instead he has chosen to be patient and to send his son to fulfill the law and to invite all to come to him for life and healing. That is the gospel.
     
  15. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    Skan, you are talking about a different issue altogether. I do not deny that all men have sinned and come short of the glory of God, that is what Romans 11:32 is saying.

    No, I am talking about ABILITY. The scripture no where says man is unable to keep the commandments. Yes, the scriptures are very clear that no man has or ever will keep the commandments, but that is a different issue altogether.

    There is no commandment that a man cannot keep. I have lied hundreds, perhaps many thousands of times, but I could have ALWAYS told the truth. I was ABLE to tell the truth if I had chosen to do so.

    Biblicist is trying to teach that it is just for God to condemn men for what they are unable to do. That is absolutely false, God condemns men JUSTLY when they fail to do what they are able to do.

    He does not have one word of scripture that says a man is unable to keep a commandment.
     
    #15 Winman, Dec 19, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 19, 2013
  16. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,114
    Likes Received:
    206

    Skandelon you are reasoning in REVERSE! The condemnation is already a completed fact OR ELSE salvation would not even be a consideration. Think about this before responding. Hence, those who are "NOW" under no condemnation because they are "NOW" in Christ Jesus WERE PREVIOUSLY CONDEMNED or else no salvation, no savior would be necessary! Think about it.
     
  17. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,114
    Likes Received:
    206
    What is the reason that no man has or ever will keep the commandments? The answer is spelled out in Romans 8:7 where scripture does say "IS NOT SUBJECT TO THE LAW OF GOD AND NEITHER INDEED CAN BE" - that is the REASON given by Scriptures why no man has or no man ever will.
     
  18. Skandelon

    Skandelon
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2003
    Messages:
    9,638
    Likes Received:
    0
    So, unsaved people you know are condemned? They are already burning in hell? Or COULD they be saved if they repented and believed?

    They stand condemned already because they have not believed, but that doesn't mean they can't believe. It just means they will be condemned if they don't.
     
  19. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,114
    Likes Received:
    206
    These are irrational arguments! You don't have to be in hell already to be condemned to hell. Think about it! People go to hell because they are already CONDEMNED as sinners! They don't go to hell in order to be condemned as sinners.

    Hell is the CONSEQUENCE of condemnation while violation of God's Law is the LEGAL GROUNDS FOR CONDEMNATION to hell. Which comes first? Why even the need of salvation if we were not already "children of wrath EVEN AS OTHERS" - Eph. 2:2-3?????
     
  20. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,114
    Likes Received:
    206
    Readers, look at the absolute false doctrines and irrationality embraced by Arminians when confronted with this dilemma!!!

    1. They must embrace Justification by Works

    2. They must deny previous condemnation as sinners

    3. They must invalidate the need of justification and salvation altogether since they reject previous condemnation as sinners.

    4. They must argue that to be condemned as sinners means immediate placement in hell.

    This is the irrationality and false doctrines Arminians are forced to embrace due to this Biblical dilemma against their system.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

Loading...