The Arminian Future Scenario

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by whatever, Aug 1, 2005.

  1. whatever

    whatever
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    When the 4 OR 5-point-Arminian finds himself in heaven enjoying the perfect love, unity and selfless concern for others that is not possible here on this sinful earth - and then peeking over the ramparts of heaven - observes his OWN precious sweet daughter who passed the age of accountability as the MANY of Matt 7 -- now writhing in the agony of eternal roasting in hell - he may well run to his sovereign lord with the cry

    "Oh My Lord, my great God and Savior! Couldn't you have done Something for my precious child??"

    And of course the answer will come back that the Arminian so loves to hear – "Why of course I COULD - BUT I loved her too much to do violate her will!!!!"!

    "Hallelujah!" cries out the Arminian - that IS the Gospel I was proclaiming!! Ahh that blissful eternity with Arminianism's God that "fairly" saved you who were wise enough to choose Christ, but not your precious daughter - and you will be praising through all eternity that YOU were wise enough to choose to be spared though she was not. (For it IS all about those wise enough to choose to believe in the end)

    We see Arminians blessing the fact that they chose Him – because He created them with all that they needed in order to choose Him - but not their precious, foolish daughters.

    So just enjoy! Enjoy! Mercy to the wise, and justice to the foolish - oh the Arminian bliss.
     
  2. russell55

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    Cute! Make sure you copy that and save it some place handy. I'm sure you'll have lots of opportunities to use it here.
     
  3. King James Bond

    King James Bond
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    whatever,

    You bring up some very good points....but I was wondering...will Arminians find themselves in heaven?

    I, in my finite understanding, hope that God grants repentance to them.

    He may or may not. I am glad that His will be done!

    I am sure you and I both agree that the Lord will not tolerate any boasting in eternal paradise......unless the boasting is only about Him!

    What we have here is a very genuine problem of men.....convicted that in and of themselves they have goodness, will power, wisdom, strength, and the ability to come to God all on their own.

    These are the people that think of themselves as self appointed gifts to God rather than saved from Hell by His mighty hand!

    God grants repentance!

    2 Timothy 2:24-26;

    And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance , so that they may know the truth, and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will .

    He may grant repentance...and he may not.

    They say that God draws men without an effectual draw to salvation.

    They declare that God offers salvation, but does nothing to affect the bent will of men.

    They claim He does not place salvation on any individual, lest it infringe on the will of an individual.

    What must be noted here is that nothing is “individual”. All created things are made, and sustained by God. He owns all things, they belong to Him to do with as He pleases.

    What they declare is that God places the “option” of salvation before men as His finished work.

    They claim His work has no effect on saving anyone if everyone turns away. God provides, and then relies on men to choose Him.

    By their own theory, heaven may be left empty of all souls, simply because all may choose not to come, and if they all choose not to come, there is nothing God can do about it.

    Isn't that the problem with people in the first place?

    This theory places the salvation of each person in their own hands. So ultimately, what we have is God providing the means to be saved, while men must reach out and take hold of the means.

    Not only must men reach out with effort and take hold of what is offered, they must by their own free-will effort keep themselves unto the very day of salvation. So salvation depends not on Christ, but on man.

    So salvation is not dependent on the mighty power and strength of God......it now depends on all-powerful, mighty, wise, wonderful people!

    How absurd!

    Daniel 4:35
    All the people of the earth are nothing compared to him. He has the power to do as he pleases among the angels of heaven and with those who live on earth. No one can stop him or challenge him, saying, `What do you mean by doing these things?'


    1 Peter 2:8-9
    "He is the stone that makes people stumble, the rock that will make them fall." They stumble because they do not listen to God's word or obey it, and so they meet the fate that has been planned for them. But you are not like that, for you are a chosen people. You are a kingdom of priests, God's holy nation, his very own possession. This is so you can show others the goodness of God, for He called you out of the darkness into his wonderful light.

    God bless you! Regards, KJB [​IMG]
     
  4. dianetavegia

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    KJB, VERY bad form questioning the salvation of other members based on their following of MERE MEN.

    Please refrain from doing this again.

    Diane
     
  5. whatever

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    Good thoughts, KJB. I do believe that Arminians are very confused but saved nonetheless. God saves us all in spite of ourselves. None of us glorify God as we should. May we all continue to grow in the knowledge of His glorious grace, and do all that we can to make His glory known.
     
  6. Timtoolman

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    KJB U WIN......the prize for the most strawmen in one post. Pick up you copy of the teachings of J. Calvin in the lobby. The rest will stick with the teachings of J. Christ. [​IMG]
     
  7. King James Bond

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    Diane,

    I posted,

    You bring up some very good points....but I was wondering...will Arminians find themselves in heaven?

    I, in my finite understanding, hope that God grants repentance to them.

    He may or may not. I am glad that His will be done!

    You responded,

    KJB, VERY bad form questioning the salvation of other members based on their following of MERE MEN.

    Please refrain from doing this again.

    Diane

    Diane,

    It was only an honest question. I have no power to condemn people to Hell, nor do I have the power to place people in heaven.

    It is my desire, as I stated on the post.....I hope God grants repentance.

    Is it wrong for a person to wish for such a thing?

    The matter of salvation is in the hands of God Himself.

    It certainly was not my intent to offend you.

    May I ask you if you question the salvation of lets say...Calvinists? Muslims? Buddists? Hare Krishnas....or any others?

    This is also only an honest question and is not intended to offend you or them.

    What I mean by this is simple......we may not be capable of seeing the inward portion of a person.....but by seeing what we do see, are we able to make any pretty good guesses or not?

    God bless you! And regards, KJB
     
  8. OldRegular

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    The following was posted as the OP on the thread Heresy? Calvinism or Arminianism. I believe it is appropriate here!

    I have noticed on this Forum that Calvinists and Arminians routinely refer to each other as heretics. Frankly, though I believe that Arminianism or “freewillism” is an erroneous interpretation of Scripture, I do not believe it to be heretical.

    I don't consider myself a Calvinist. I simply believe that the Doctrine of the Sovereign Grace of God in the Salvation of His Elect is the only correct interpretation of Scripture. That being said I will use the term Calvinism for simplicity.

    So my question is this: Can those of you who refer to those who adhere to either Calvinism or Arminianism as heretics provide Scripture that supports your accusation?
     
  9. King James Bond

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    oldregular,

    Everyone is called a "heretic".

    King James, Luther, Huss, Calvin, Popes, Bunyan, Zwingli, Jacob, Ellen White, Baptists, Methodists, J/Ws......

    You and I could make a never ending list of people and denominations that have been called heretical.

    I have been called a heretic many times.

    My advice to everyone is look up the word Heretic and then remember something;

    When being called a heretic always consider the source! LOL

    Some names "depending on who throws them" can be worn like a badge of honor!

    Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

    God bless and regards, KJB [​IMG]



    God bless and regards, KJB
     
  10. Frogman

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    Let me point out to all, including myself, if the object of my faith is anything but Christ, then I am following a teaching of man, whether its source is within myself or in another.

    This condition would then render me yet lost by any standard of measurement for having not the witness of the Spirit, teaching me the things of Christ, within myself.

    That alone would condemn me, regardless of the outward showing of my good works, obedience to the gospel, etc. etc.

    May God Bless,
    Bro. Dallas
     
  11. whetstone

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    Whatever,

    NICE op, and NICE parody of Bob Ryan's whiny 'Calvinist future scenario' that I'm too lazy to read all the way through each time he posts it. [​IMG]
     
  12. King James Bond

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    The Body of Christ contains all sorts of gifted people.

    These gifts have been given by God, not men.

    The foot is no better than the eye, and the ears no better than the hand.

    Some have been given the gift of teaching and they do it quite well.

    John Calvin was one such man.....

    yes....a gifted man.....but simply a man....a man yielded to the Word of god!

    His teachings were NOT his teachings.

    He taught FROM and ON the Word of God!

    We are compelled to speak about God.

    It is God working in us. He compels us to do so.

    We, with words can call people to repent. We, using words can convict of sin where we see sin.

    This does not mean people will repent. It is God that works in the inner portions of the human soul.

    We are to be light in a ..."dark world". Not fence sitters.

    The light is truth.

    Hot or cold anyone?

    Regards, KJB [​IMG]
     
  13. webdog

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    Heresy
    Noun
    1. Any opinions or doctrines at variance with the official or orthodox position.

    2. A belief that rejects the orthodox tenets of a religion.

    KJB, it could be called heresy to teach that Jesus came from Heaven to die only for a certain group of people. To question whether those with anti calvinistic views will be in Heaven, was very classless. The Bible is clear that Jesus died FOR ALL MEN, not some nebulous group your doctrine falsely defines as the "elect".
     
  14. TexasSky

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    I am not Arminian, but I will tell you that your scenario is totally ridiculous and can caution you that it may be turned around totally on you.

    First: The Arminian would have, because of his love and concern for his child, taught the message of Grace to the child, prayed for the child, and encouraged the child to accept Christ as Lord and Savior.

    Second: The Calvinist, looking over that edge, may one day see their child in the line for those marked for hell, and turn to Christ and say, "Lord! Why didn't you save my precious child?!" And Christ, per Cavlinism, will respond. "I didn't feel like it."
     
  15. Jarthur001

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    You know,

    The point of the debate though the years often gets lost on these pages of this forum. The debate has always centered on "how we can better reach the unsaved".

    Calvinism says....man is dead in Sins..and does not know it. Man never seeks God....so we need to go tell them

    Arminianism says...Not dead..just sick...just witness to them..and they can turn the gospel down if they want.


    Calvinism says..no man came to God..so God choose the elect..and now they must share the gospel

    Arminianism says...the elect ?..BULL !!
    try again...anyone can come. whosoever will may come.

    Calvinism says ...If man understand how holy God is..and how lost man is...he can not resist.

    Arminianism says...if he turns it down...do not give up...keep trying

    This is only a few things we see diffrent.

    I am calvinist..for i feel it is closer to the picture of the Bible. We all must feel like this...or there would be no debate. But notice this..the debate should always be over winning others to Him.

    Sometimes we get off the path on to other things..that has nothing to do with the end picture we need to see.

    That picture..lost souls..and how to reach them

    In Christ...James
     
  16. whatever

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    Hey TS,

    I know it is ridiculous. It is a parody of the ridiculous "Calvinist scenario" that another person keeps posting.

    To your first point, I do the same for my children.

    To your second point, for the umpteenth time, that is not what Calvinism teaches.
     
  17. rc

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    and encouraged the child to accept Christ as Lord and Savior.

    To bad that's all you can do for your child. Just encourage them and hope (can't pray) that they will from their dead, depraved heart choose the greatest good.... wow, that would leave me in anxiety!

    Thank goodness I can plea to God who can CHANGE her heart and give her new birth! I'll trust in that!
     
  18. dianetavegia

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    I'm always confused by YOUR posts, rc. You say above you can 'plea to God who can CHANGE her heart' and yet you believe she was either elected before creation or not elected. How can your plea 'change God's mind'?

    I can raise my child in a God fearing home with an 'only' spouse who was chosen after many years of prayer and asking God to open my eyes to the spouse created especially for me. I can pray daily for my child and my child's spouse. I can live constantly a life that shows my child how a Christian SHOULD live and when I fail, point that out and repent in front of that child. I can share the love of Jesus with my child and tell them how Jesus loved them so much that He died on the cross for them.

    I can be the submissive wife and active church member God has commanded me to be. I can witness to others in front of the children. I can teach my children at a young age how important it is to live for Christ and answer their questions with 'well the Bible says'....

    I can do so much more than hope my child was chosen for heaven and not chosen for Hell. I can stand on the promise of God and train my children, knowing God is not a liar.

     
  19. King James Bond

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    webdog,

    Jesus Christ was thought of as a heretic, and was crucified.

    Yes, many Arminians would think of me as a heretic.

    If Jesus Christ died for all men......no men would go to Hell.

    When being called names, like I said, consider the source!

    God bless you webdog!

    Regards, KJB [​IMG]
     
  20. Frogman

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    In reading rc's posts, I was under the impression he/she is an arminian.

    Go figure.

    is hoping not praying?

    Didn't Paul say we are saved by hope?

    HUUUUM

    Bro. Dallas
     

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