The Arminian Prayer

And you have totally ignored Roms where it says we are dead to sins! Are you still a sinner? How could you be if you are dead to it! YOu should not be able to EVEN respond to it if you are dead to it, using your def. of dead! If you are going to ignore or not answer people then don't even bother me. Y

 

Really? Revelation 22:17f,g says, 'And whosoever will let him take of the water of life freely.'

Is God speaking to the will of a horse, donkey or lost human sinners?

This passage does speak, even without commentary of men, to the issue of a person's free will.

 

I haven't ignored anything. I answered your objection by pointing out that you were creating a false dilemna.

I don't have time for a lengthy answer; for now here is John Gill on Romans 6:2:

</font>[/QUOTE]Ahhh, another flip flop on word play. Now dead doesn't mean dead! Dead to sin, but can have sin, yet dead means cannot respond too.

 

There is no contradiction here. An unregenerate man is dead in trespasses and sins. Upon being made regenarate, the old man dies and becomes a new man (made alive) in Christ. The point of Romans 6 is that a Christian is not to live in sin-- he has died to that old manner of life. </font>[/QUOTE]So a person who is dead in sins and trespasses, who cannot respond because they are dead, and therefore dead is dead. Yet a person who is saved, and dead to sin does not have the same restriction. They are dead to sin yet they can sin, and do sin.....ahh you don't see a contradiction here? I have run this question by many people and have not had one person not understand what I am saying. If I am not being clear to you however please let me know. I think you either do not comprehend the problem here or you are just dodging.

Tim

 

I do not see anything wrong with Dr. John Gills statements even from my more Biblical perspective.

He is quoted as saying, ‘There is a death for sin, a death in sin, and a death to sin;’

A death for sin is found in Romans 6:23 and in Revelation 20:14 relates to the sinner who dies in his sins and experiences ‘. . . the second death,’ or as he says is a ‘death in sin.’ Christians are to look at sin as though it is a death to be avoided, or as Gill says, ‘a death to sin.’

Ephesians 2:1 and verse 5 suggests that we ‘were dead in trespasses and sins.’ This metaphor is pointing out that sinners have no relationship to God and are in desperate need of God gift of grace, [Ephesians 2:8] which can only be accepted by faith. This ‘death’ in Ephesians is not eternal to those who respond to the wooing of the Spirit, and believe in Christ’s saving benefits. If sinners were eternally dead no one would have a hope of new life in Jesus. This is where the lost one’s faith/trust in Jesus comes into play. The sinners who refuse God in Christ remain in that death because without ‘faith’ it is impossible to please Him. [Hebrews 11:6] The sinner must first believe that He is a reality and when they seek Him a reward of forgiveness is on the way.

Although God’s grace has touched and been received by the O.T. fathers, this would never have happened without a human response of faith in Jehovah. Hebrews eleven does not say, ‘By grace Abraham attained a final salvation, but rather says, ‘By faith . . . . all of the saints obtained the promise of everlasting life. Receiving the grace comes only by faith in the reality of God’s covenant plan of salvation.

For centuries God has offered His inestimable plan leading to never ending life, and sinners have rejected His offer of grace. The Israelites ‘resisted’ the Holy Spirit as recorded by Luke in Acts 7:51 & the apostle in John 5:40. Did God have the ability to force them into the fold of the elect? Scripture indicates that He did not accomplish the salvation of His people. [John 1:11] This does not mean that the Holy Spirit is not all powerful, but He respects the free agency of the sinner.[Revelation 22:17 f, g]

 

Monergist,

You are right, the Greek word changes between the two passages. Each has a distinct meaning.

In Romans 6:8 it means ‘to die off or to slay’ thus giving us the truth that we have died off or were slain with Christ {Gr. Arathanomen} and we believe we will live with Him.

In Ephesians 2:1 the Greek word, as you said, is {vekrous} meaning dead. In time past before salvation we walked in the death of our trespasses and sins. At the point of faith we are adopted into the family of God and the sinner has then been moved, by God, out of death into life.

Jesus said in John 5:24 that ‘. . . we have passed from death into life. (eis) Gr.{into}. We are not in and out of grace as Christians, but we can be out of fellowship with our Lord. The true believer never is happy in their sin.

Brother Ray

 

That must be the reason my sins are a Pain in the Heart! Cause every time I sin, my heart gets pricked as with a hot needle!

 

WesOutwest,

I heard a preacher many years ago say, "Keep short accounts with God." It is wise council and this is what I do.

I always wonder why there is always one 'besetting sin' that is difficult to overcome. I am still trying to have perfect self-control in an area of my life. Maybe some day I will be satisfied of my life before His holiness.

 

Ok will give you that one. YOu get to pick which def you want. So lets not pick dead, that is one of the options, and ignore the fact that most translators chose death. Lets go to the fact that Adam and Eve did respond to God after the fall. Seems God can speak to the dead. Those He arose and the ones the disciplses arose heard them. So after the fall Adam and Eve spoke and understood what God was saying. HOw does a dead person talk, or respond to God in Gen.?

Tim

 

</font>[/QUOTE]I feel like I am talking to a young person here. Your post are not very responsive to what I post. I simply stated that in most translations it states died...thats died! And that it suggest a specific point when the action occurred. at salvation. Death rather physical or spiritual means seperation, not extinction. I am trying to apply your def. of dead to romans 6:2 which wpuld show your calvinistic def. of dead to be biblical incorrect. I said if you want to believe it is different for your sake that is fine. I would give that too you. Then I posed the question how a dead person, by your def., could respond to God. You said by Grace, I like that and that is exactly how a sinner can respond to God. By His grace! AS in the garden when ADam and Eve where DEAD, after the fall, and then talked with God, responded to God, and understood God. This also refutes your calvinistic def of Dead.

Tim

 

This is the non-sensical mythcal world of a Calvinist!!

This Calvinist would claim that having been given a 100 million dollars they should "thank themselves" for it!!

How odd that though they have NO basis for such a concept in real life -- in "Calvinist life" they find it perfectly reasonable!!

But so it goes - for Calvinism has never worked "in real life"

In Christ,

Bob

 

For the Calvinist that CLAIMS that the DEAD can not do anything and so only those God MAKES to be alive in Christ can THEN repent and be Baptized --- I give this argument.

Heb 6:1-6 HOW can it be impossible to "RENEW THEM AGAIN" having so fallen away -- when in fact they were DEAD the whole time??

What about the seed that grows but then dies out - is that the actions of the DEAD?

In Christ,

Bob

 

Bob Ryan,

Great point! If I were a Calvinist I would say this is only a parable in Matthew 13:3-9. But it seems like Christians should be able to understand Jesus' words.

In their view the dead can only be saved by regeneration first and these must perservere. So what about those in verse five who 'sprung up' and later 'withered away?'

In my view only those in verse eight were really moved on by the Spirit to receive the Son. Christians must alway be fruit bearers, if they have a genuine faith in Jesus.

 

Saving grace is His gift to the sinner, so how can we thank ourselves for accepting what He freely offers? [Ephesians 2:8]

Bob Ryan you are right again.

 

I am back from playing with the Christian evolutionists on the other area of the Baptist board. Just wanted to see what you guys were up to.

Bob

 

Bob,
Welcome back Bob, I will have my own "leave of absence" in the near future also! I did not know that their was an evolutionist forum on BB?!?! Anyways, may God bless us both.

In Christ