The Atonement.

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by johnp., May 31, 2005.

  1. johnp.

    johnp.
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    The Atonement.

    What does it achieve and who was it for.

    I say it was for the people of God only. The reason I say this is because the type, yom kippur, was only for the Israelites. PS 47:19 He has revealed his word to Jacob, his laws and decrees to Israel. 20 He has done this for no other nation; they do not know his laws.
    yom kippur was never meant to atone but to show a spiritual reality that those who were saved in Israel, ...For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel Romans 9:6, were well aware of.

    They looked forward to the crucifixtion as we look back. They celebrated the death of Christ with the atonement ceremony as we celebrate His death with the bread and wine.

    That the atonement was a sacrifice that dealt conclusively with sin in the sinner taking away punishment for the sin and sins committed on an individual basis. So we read, 1 Sam 3:14 Therefore, I swore to the house of Eli, `The guilt of Eli's house will never be atoned for by sacrifice or offering.' "
    Since Wes says that Jesus paid the penalty for ALL SIN, as he would put it, then how is it that Eli's house was not included in this all embracing atonement? Wes knows about this and rejects it while sticking to his belief that no one is going to Hell because of sin because the atonement was for all sin.

    Israel itself is a type and is meant to show us spiritual truths using physical demonstrations. Israel represents the Church. The Church is the reality of the type and so the Church is spiritual Israel and spiritual Israel, PS 47:19 He has revealed his word to Jacob, his laws and decrees to Israel. 20 He has done this for no other nation; they do not know his laws, is being addressed here and in many other places. When God speaks to Israel in the OT then He is speaking to His Church. (There might be occasions that deal with the Israelites in particular but in the main He is speaking to us. What was true of Israel is true of His Church.)

    The Day of Atonement shows us in clear language and without shadow the exact representation of Christ's atonement in detail and God's character.

    It cannot be anything else but limited atonement.

    john. :cool:
     
  2. BobRyan

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    1 John 2:2 - the "Atoning Sacrifice" (NIV) was completed at the cross.

    Lev 16 - the "ENTIRE ATONEMENT PROCESS" as defined by God did not end with the "sacrifice".

    Heb 8-9 -- Christ is now in heaven serving the role as High Priest identified in Lev 16 - in that segement of the "Atonement" process defined by God Himself.

    Thanks to John for pointing out the need to listen to God's OWN definition for atonement as He gives it in Lev 16 when He spells out the Day of Atonement.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  3. johnp.

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    Hello Bob.

    Jesus is my mediator. He stood in my place and took the rap for my sins.
    ...the need to listen to God's OWN definition for atonement as He gives it in Lev 16 when He spells out the Day of Atonement.
    We are agreed.

    john.
     
  4. BobRyan

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    True enough. But the question remains - what does God's own defintion of "Atonement" say about stoping that entire process at the moment the Lord's Goat (the sin offering) was slain?

    If the process has to include the Heb 8-10 work of Christ as High Priest - then 1John 2:2 (NIV) is correct when it points to the cross as the "Atoning Sacrifice" while the entire process of atonement continues with the role of Christ as our High Priest in the Most Holy Place.

    The Calvinist concept that "once atonement is complete" nothing remains - is correct if you really take the full meaning of atonement as defined in Lev 16 which includes the present work of Christ for us in the Most Holy place.

    The "problem" with Calvinism is that it "needs" that to be complete at the cross and to exlude the work of Christ as our High Priest today. They "need that" to support the idea of a limited atonement that was "limited at the cross" and not simply in its application in the Most Holy place as individual cases are dealt with in the lives of the people being forgiven or remaining lost.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  5. johnp.

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    Hello Bob.

    I'm not sure what you mean. The atoning work is done as soon as the sacrifice is made. That He continues to be the High Priest but not as such a mediator because when the curtain was torn in two I along with all other Christians find ourselves standing face to face with our Father. Reconciled friends need no mediator. But I remind you that Aaron entered that place on behalf of the people of Israel not the world.
    We are in the Holy of Holies.

    john.
     
  6. icthus

    icthus
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    JohnP

    You keep on bringing up this passage about Eli, and try to argue that this proves that the Atonement of Jesus Christ must therefore be limited. What complete nonsense! Do you not read the words of Jesus Himself, where He says, "ALL sins shall be forgiven the sons of men, and blasphemies whatsoever they shall blaspheme: But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiviness, but is in danger of eternal damnation" (Mark 3:28-29)

    Now, does Jesus really mean "ALL sins", or do we here take the "all" in the Calvinistic sense, where they distort the meaning to "some" or "most", or "all kinds of", etc? This would no doubt show that the sins committed by the son's of Eli were against the Holy Spirit, since they mocked and blasphemied against the holy sacrifices of God. But, to base your defence of your doctrine for a Limited Atonement of this one passage, is very poor indeed. Surely you don't expect anyone in their right mind to conclude from your argument, that Jesus only died for the elect?

    You will have to give us something better.
     
  7. Wes Outwest

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    There are two covenants. The first one was LAW, the second one is GRACE. That which applied under the LAW cannot by its very nature in a law vs grace scenario, be equal to that which applies under grace.

    If you know of a way to make that happen I'd be happy to consider it.
     
  8. johnp.

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    Hello icthus.
    Love the 'ALL' man. :cool: Funny that 'ALL' except!

    Eli's great isn't he. He went through that for us. He went through that to show us that Wes is wrong and so are you. It's a limited atonement either way isn't it? Blasphemy you believe was not in the punishment Jesus suffered? Then it is limited atonement isn't it?

    Regardless of that no atonement was offered for the house of Eli is that not so?
    Sam 3:14 Therefore, I swore to the house of Eli, `The guilt of Eli's house will never be atoned for by sacrifice or offering.' "
    That proves that no atonement was offered for Eli's house?
    I think it means that `The guilt of Eli's house will never be atoned for by sacrifice or offering.' what do you think?
    If it means `The guilt of Eli's house will never be atoned for by sacrifice or offering.' then it's a flipping limited atonement ain't it? What makes it limited? If Eli's house is the only verse or passage I would still believe that it was a limited atonement because `The guilt of Eli's house will never be atoned for by sacrifice or offering.' what more proof is needed? Not proof but belief is missing in you.

    Well that is the normal Arminian response to a Calvinist truth. What then, ALL except? :cool: Where's yer head man? ALL sins shall be forgiven except...! :cool:
    So you invent a blasphemy of religious ceremonies nice one! :cool: Show me the scripture of this sin of holy meetings.
    I don't. What this passage is is a hurdle for you to jump. Explain it away then I will introduce others that bring you beliefs down.
    To tell me that a verse that you cannot beat should not be used is also a normal response from Arminians. :cool:
    No. What I want is for you to tell the truth. Does this verse say that no atonement is offered for Eli's house? That's all. Of course that will mean that Jesus did not die for everyone. Limited Atonement.
    That is the only conclusion to reach from this verse. Now you put me to rights or accept the word of God as it is not as you want it
    You err if you think I must give you anything.

    john.
     
  9. johnp.

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    Hello Wes.
    The law and grace are not opposed :cool: I am free to keep it. :cooler:

    I'm not sure about the point you are making though.

    john.
     
  10. billwald

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    There are 3 or 4 covenants.

    The Noahic Covenant involves all humans.

    There are 2 Abrahamic Covenants. One for the spiritual descendants and one for the earthly descendants. All spiritual people are also earthly people. In other words, Spiritual (eternal) Israel is a sub set of earthly (temporal) Israel.

    The Mosiac Covenant is strictly a social contract for people living in Nation Israel and does not obligate any gentile outside of Israel. NOT ONE VERSE of the Mosiac Covenant applies to gentiles in Brooklyn.
     
  11. Wes Outwest

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    The law and grace are not opposed :cool: I am free to keep it. :cooler:

    I'm not sure about the point you are making though.

    john.
    </font>[/QUOTE]The point is that no man could keep all the law, "For all have sinned". Under Grace, Keeping ALL the law is not the requirement for salvation. Under grace it is FAITH ALONE whereby man is saved by God.

    If one rejects God's grace as the Jews have, they remain under the law by their choice. Yes, by their own choice they are bound by LAW because Jesus said, "whosoever believeth in him ...". Every Jew by his own personal choice can believe in Jesus, and thereby receive salvation, the free gift of God, through faith and thus not be bound by the law but be freed in Grace.

    There are two main covenants, Law and Grace...Grace is better!
     
  12. Wes Outwest

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    Understood, I've been to Brooklyn, and I don't think God lives there.
     
  13. BobRyan

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    You are the one who first mentioned God's OWN definition of this concept in the Day of Atonement (Lev 16).

    Please show that in that chapter God declares that the service ends as soon as the Sin offering is killed.

    So you think "we have no mediator because we no longer need a Mediator"???

    1. Christ is "the advocate between God and man". Our Mediator even after the cross.

    John shows us that continued pardon for sin even AFTER being saved depends on Christ's role before God as our advocate - our representative - our high priest.
    Our access to God the Father is “through Him” (Jesus our High Priest) still. And we continue to rely upon that High Priestly work being done for us – (now – in heaven).

    Christs role as our High Priest after the cross is essential for salvation according to the writer of Hebrews --.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  14. BobRyan

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    This is not true according to Heb 8 --

    Christ is doing real ministry in the real heavenly sanctuary – of which the earthly was merely a type – a shadow.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  15. johnp.

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    Hello Bob.
    The moment of the sacrifice and the proof of the blood is presented to God the atonement is made. That the service continues after that point doesn't change the sacrifice made.
    If you believe that you can fall away then you will believe intercession continues in this fashion. I believe that once a sacrifice is accepted no more sacrifice is needed.

    HEB 10:17 Then he adds:

    "Their sins and lawless acts
    I will remember no more."

    HEB 10:18 And where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin.

    1 Tim 2:5 is pre-salvation but I will give you the point. There seems to be a continuation of advocacy after salvation.
    You are saved and forgiven or you are not saved and forgiven. How can you be forgiven today but lost tomorrow?
    What is this work He does on our behalf now?
    I said -- We are in the Holy of Holies. Meaning that we stand before God without the barrier being there.
    Hebrews 8 just tells us that Jesus has entered heaven and has sat down. It does not say we are not with Him.
    HEB 10:19 Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus...


    HEB 9:15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance--now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

    The new covenant is what is being mediated and once this is accomplished, once a person has had his sins forgiven then no more mediating is needed because the contract was ratified. I stand forgiven and accepted by God. Why should a Husband and Wife need a mediator?

    john.
     
  16. BobRyan

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    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Please show that in that chapter God declares that the service ends as soon as the Sin offering is killed.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    The chapter says nothing about "The proof of the blood presented". All we know from the symbol is that the High Priest's work in the Most Holy Place has to be completed. This is the only time of the year - the only service - when the High Priest performs this special function.

    We are told that Christ is currently serving in that role as our High Priest in the heavenly sanctuary - and we are told in Rev 15 that there comes a point when that role can not longer function.

    We know that Christ did not start His Role as our High Priest in that regard until after His ascension and that He retains that role according to Paul many years after the cross.

    That is true. But that is not the issue. The sacrifice is made - but the role of the High Priest did not end when the Sacrifice was made NOR was the "Day of Atonement" completed at that point.

    You have to have "all of that service" not just the starting event, for atonement to be completed.

    There is no possibility of editing the chapter down so it ends when the sin offering is made.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  17. BobRyan

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    AS already quoted - the NT word is in on that point - Christ "Ever liveth to MAKE intercession" and "IF we sin WE HAVE an Advocate with the Father".

    The texts are many - on this point and they are "salvific" as was pointed out in Heb 4 and 5.

    That is true - and it is also not the point made for the Day of Atonement.

    The point is not that there are "more sacrifices after the sin offering is complete".

    The point is that the High Priest's work done in the sanctuary - happens AFTER the sacrifice is made and that ALL of this is incorporated *by God" into the term "Atonement".

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  18. Wes Outwest

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    Johnp said,
    Once the atonement is made, that for which atonement is made is no longer payable by the one(s) who do what was paid for through atonement, that is, the penalty requiring atonement IS SATISFIED through atonement. That which is satisfied through atonement cannot be charged again!

    Jesus atoned for sin, ALL the sin of the world. That 'ALL' means ALL sin in ALL times has been atoned.

    The "GOOD NEWS" is that no man dies for his sins, Jesus died in his stead. BUT only those who do believe in him are not judged but pass from death into life everlasting. All unbelievers will be judged, not for sin, but for lack of faith in God, and they will be cast into the lake of fire.
     
  19. BobRyan

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    John shows us that continued pardon for sin even AFTER being saved depends on Christ's role before God as our advocate - our representative - our high priest.
    Our access to God the Father is “through Him” (Jesus our High Priest) still. And we continue to rely upon that High Priestly work being done for us – (now – in heaven).

    Christs role as our High Priest after the cross is essential for salvation according to the writer of Hebrews --.

    </font>[/QUOTE]
     
  20. BobRyan

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    That is true. ALL sin that is fully atoned can not be paid "Again". Furthermore ALL sin INCLUDES the sin of rejection.

    Once atonement is complete - there is nothing more to be done. The person is either in or out and no change takes place after that. In other words if atonement is complete in your case - you can not come by later and change the outcome. It is over.

    Christ was given as our "Atoning Sacrifice" on the Cross 1John 2:2.

    The Atonement process that God defines includes BOTH the Atoning Sacrifice (of the sin offering) AND the work of the High Priest that followed.

    (See Lev 16).

    Christ's current Work as our High Priest is described in the book of Hebrews --

    Christs role as our High Priest after the cross is essential for salvation according to the writer of Hebrews --.

    ===================================================================


    2. "We" are also there by faith - with Christ - receiving the benefits of His intercession - salvation, forgiveness of new sins.
    In Christ,

    Bob
     

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