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The Atonement

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Heavenly Pilgrim, Apr 2, 2009.

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  1. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    The payment for sin was finished on the cross. God's wrath against sin was satisfied.

    But Christ made it crystal clear that if you do not believe, you will be condemned.


    Salvation requires atonement and faith.



    The atonement provided the way to salvation. But we will not be saved apart from faith in that atonement and the one who made it.
     
    #21 Amy.G, Apr 3, 2009
  2. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

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    HP: Are you absolutely certain? Try doing a word search on 'wrath' as it relates to God and sin and post your findings. See if it was satisfied on the cross.
    Hint:I do not believe such is true in the least.
     
    #22 Heavenly Pilgrim, Apr 3, 2009
  3. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

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    HP: What if I said, the mercy and grace of God shown in the atonement is the grounds of salvation, but the condition of salvation is faith, and then further said that there is nothing meritorious in our faith and is always thought of in the sense of not without which, NOT in the sense of ‘that for the sake of?’ Is that not what you are saying in a sense? Are you not separating grounds from conditions in your remarks? If so there is reason to shout.:wavey:

    We might have landed on something concrete as a platform to develop our discussions from:thumbs:
     
    #23 Heavenly Pilgrim, Apr 3, 2009
  4. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    Are you saying Christ's atonement, the shed blood of perfect Lamb of God was not sufficient payment for sin?
     
    #24 Amy.G, Apr 3, 2009
  5. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    Yes, I would say that the "condition" for salvation (on our part) is faith.

    It's very simple.
    Atonement (of Christ alone) + faith = salvation.
     
    #25 Amy.G, Apr 3, 2009
  6. Agnus_Dei

    Agnus_Dei New Member

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    I understand, I tried to condense weeks of lectures into a few paragraphs and as I said earlier, a post hardly does this topic justice.

    To reiterate, the juridical understanding of the Atonement is a Western theology based upon the model of Anselm, which is based on the idea of sin and evil being primarily something that God punishes us for. However, the Orthodox view (and the view of the Fathers, BTW) was that sin and evil are primarily something that God rescues us from. Salvation begins with being released from the bondage of the enemy.

    Here’s where the Orthodox view of ‘Original Sin’ differs from the West. We view this not as a kind of genetic inheritance, but as something external, something environmental, not something we are born with, but born into. We are born into a world that has been stolen from God, and has become a prison. We are born into a world that lies in the power of the evil one. We are citizens of the kingdom of Satan by birth.

    Again, look at Adam and Eve…God did not tell them that if they ate of the fruit that God would kill them in His anger, but rather simply that they would die. Death was not bestowed upon mankind as a punishment from an offended, angry, vindictive God; it was merely the end result of Adam and Eve’s action.

    Look at it this way, God didn’t create “Death” anymore than a light bulb creates darkness. If you were to unscrew the active light bulb, the end result would be darkness and a burned hand, for you have just severed the ties with the light. Likewise when Adam and Eve ate of the fruit, in order to “be like God”, they tried to be deified without Deity, and, in severing themselves from their Life, Death (the burned experience by their nature) was the end result. Now they were no longer fit to eat from the Tree and live forever in a state of death and decay, which is something God would not stand for. So in essence, death is sort of a mercy.

    Keep in mind to, that in Orthodoxy, we have no complaint with the mercy of God, nor with Christ’s death as God’s saving act. We do however have an issue of God’s justice as an image of requiring satisfaction. To speak of God’s wrath (as the Holy Scriptures certainly do) is not to say that God is angry in any way comparable to the anger of man. To speak of God’s wrath is a theological statement about the rupture in our relationship with Him and should not be confused with how God feels…unfortunately, many conversations I’ve had with atheist and such has been centered on God’s wrath as defined by Protestantism.

    Unless, I’m not quite understanding you, I still believe you have yet to let go of Anselm juridical understanding of the atonement, but at least you are still pondering the Orthodox view with an open mind and that I applaud you for, regardless of the outcome of your stance.

    In XC
    -
     
    #26 Agnus_Dei, Apr 3, 2009
  7. Agnus_Dei

    Agnus_Dei New Member

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    I believe as the atonement goes as St. Athanasius of Alexandria states: The Son of God became man that we might become God. II Peter 1:4 says that we have become " . . . partakers of divine nature." Athanasius amplifies the meaning of this verse when he says theosis is "becoming by grace what God is by nature."

    Did that answer the question?

    In XC
    -
     
    #27 Agnus_Dei, Apr 3, 2009
  8. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    Repentance is turning from going in one direction and going in another direction instead. Following Christ results in us turning away from that which is not of Christ - sin. So there is no way you can repent of sin without turning to Christ. You can't have one without the other either way.
     
    #28 annsni, Apr 3, 2009
  9. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    Thanks Ann!

    You explained well how faith and repentance are so intertwined.
     
    #29 Amy.G, Apr 3, 2009
  10. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

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    HP: Absolutely not. His blood is sufficient to atone for all sins, but the wrath of God was not set aside in that atonement. It ‘provided for’ the wrath of God to be set aside, it was ‘sufficient for’ the wrath of God to be set aside, but the wrath of God against sin stands today and will until the sin question is finished and the gates of hell locked and the keys taken away. If nothing else, read in Revelations were the wrath of God is yet to be poured out against all sin and unrighteousness. In large part the wrath of God is still yet to come.
     
    #30 Heavenly Pilgrim, Apr 3, 2009
  11. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

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    HP: Again, what if I were to say, Atonement + repentance = salvation? 2Pe 3:9 ¶ The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

     
    #31 Heavenly Pilgrim, Apr 3, 2009
  12. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

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    HP: I may tend to agree with you but to repent and to turn away involves a voluntary formed intent of the will. The same goes for faith. Repentance is not faith and faith is not repentance, and God calls on man first to repent and then to exercise faith in His Work. His work is a given. Nothing can change that fact. The only way it becomes effective in our lives is when we first fulfill the condition of repentance, which is indeed a work man must voluntarily comply with. Man can either refuse to repent or repent. It is up to man. The choice is his. No salvation can or will be accomplished until man complies with the condition to repent. Lu 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.”

    Certainly exercising faith is also a condition, but it is not synonymous with faith. They are not one in the same, and are indeed separately understood. Repentance has to do with man’s attitude towards his own sin. Faith has to do with believing in what God has provided. They are two separate conditions of salvation. Both must be complied with for salvation to take place.

    A sinner can repent and have a change of heart towards their sin in some cases. They can even cease to commit such acts, but salvation is not accomplished simply upon repentance for their sins. An atonement has to be made for all sins that are past. The same goes for faith. One can believe and have faith that an atonement has been made, but refuse to turn from their sin in repentance. Will faith alone save them? Not so according to Scripture, for “Faith without works is dead being alone.” Dead faith, in one once a saint or in a sinner alike, will in no wise see one into the kingdom.
     
    #32 Heavenly Pilgrim, Apr 3, 2009
  13. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    It answers to a charge of heresy.
    It is similar to a Mormon belief and many New Age beliefs.
    It is considered blasphemy that any of God's creatures, those whom God has created should ever become equal with him, that is, "God." I quote: "that we might become God." What heresy is this? No human will ever become God. We are and always will be God's creation. Satan tried to become God and was thrown out of Heaven. Take careful consideration to what you are getting yourself into.
     
    #33 DHK, Apr 3, 2009
  14. FriendofSpurgeon

    FriendofSpurgeon Well-Known Member
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    Actually, all Christians believe in a limited atonement -- that not all persons will get into heaven. The only question is how is it limited.

    A reformed position states that the atonement is limited by design.

    A non-reformed position states that the atonement is limited by chance.
     
    #34 FriendofSpurgeon, Apr 3, 2009
  15. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

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    HP: I find your comments a disgrace to this board. You could respond in many ways without the name calling that 'is supposed' to be against the rules. (obviously moderators excluded)

    Why could not have you simply asked for some clarification as to what he means by 'becoming God?' Why not say something like, are you certain we 'become God' or do you mean we become one with Him in some ways?

    When 'Christ in us' is ones hope of Glory is that not becoming one with God in a sense? If Scripture states that we are to be "perfect even as our Heavenly Father is perfect" is that not in a sense beciming one with God? If we are indeed seated in heavenly places with Him, are we not in some sense one with God?

    Why start throwing around words like heresy, blasphemy, etc. before you have even giving him an opportunity to clarify what he means by saying he believes in the quote of another?

    We need more kind and friendly questions and less personal attacks. We need to give anyone that makes a remark, that could be considered wrong or even possibly heretical, a chance to explain what they mean by it before using such words as you employ on a regular basis, should we not?
     
    #35 Heavenly Pilgrim, Apr 3, 2009
  16. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

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    HP: Could you paint the opposition in a slightly darker light, or would fairness possibly see that your ‘limited by chance’ better denoted as ‘limited by choice and or opportunity and or faithfulness and effectiveness of man to cooperate with God in the dissemination of the Gospel?’ :thumbs:
     
    #36 Heavenly Pilgrim, Apr 3, 2009
  17. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    Can one repent without faith?
     
    #37 Amy.G, Apr 3, 2009
  18. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Agnus can answer for himself, is perfectly capable and doesn't need your pity.
    Look at the difference between the two posts. I never called anyone a heretic or a blasphemer. I attacked the doctrine not the person.
    As for you, you wrote a post attacking me. You called me a disgrace. Your post is full of personal accusations which is definitely against the rules. Don't you see the difference?

    If someone denies the trinity, I would say that that is heresy.
    I don't need to wait for an explanation.
    The same is true here.

    You need not answer this post and derail this thread.
    This discussion is ended. Any further public discussion of moderating forums will be deleted. This is not the place for it.
     
    #38 DHK, Apr 3, 2009
  19. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    DHK did not say that AD was a heretic. He said the notion of us "being God" is blasphemy. I agree. I was shocked when I read AD's post.

    So you can call my comments disgraceful too.
     
    #39 Amy.G, Apr 3, 2009
  20. Agnus_Dei

    Agnus_Dei New Member

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    You sure like throwing around the charge of ‘heresy’, when you don’t have a clue as to what you are speaking about.

    Orthodoxy has been around centuries before Mormons or any new Age beliefs.

    As I said in my post, this is called Theosis, a process of becoming free of hamartia (missing the mark), being united with God, beginning in this life and later consummated in bodily resurrection. For the Orthodox Christians, Theosis (see 2 Pet. 1:4) is salvation.

    Theosis assumes that humans from the beginning are made to share in the Life or Nature of the all-Holy Trinity. Therefore, an infant or an adult worshiper is saved from the state of unholiness (hamartia — which is not to be confused with hamartema sin) for participation in the Life (zoe, not simply bios) of the Trinity — which is everlasting.

    This is not to be confused with the heretical (apotheosis) - Deification in God’s Essence, which is imparticipable. Mormonism…

    In Protestantism, instead of Theosis, we see sanctification, being set apart or made holy. Specifically, progressive sanctification is the term that is used for the ongoing work of the holy Spirit, whereby an individual is made more holy or becoming more Christ-like…

    Hope that helps your understanding

    In XC
    -
     
    #40 Agnus_Dei, Apr 3, 2009
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