The Atonement

My dear people, we are already the children of God but what we are to be in the future has not yet been revealed; all we know is, that when it is revealed we shall be like him because we shall see him as he really is. (1 John 3:2)

Jesus answered: Is it not written in your Law: I said, you are gods? So the Law uses the word gods of those to whom the word of God was addressed, and scripture cannot be rejected. (John 10:34-35)

But to all who did accept him he gave power to become children of God, to all who believe in the name of him who was born not out of human stock or urge of the flesh or will of man but of God himself. (John 1:12-13)

God created man in the image of himself, in the image of God he created him, male and female he created them. (Genesis 1:27)

They (those who love him) are the ones he chose specially long ago and intended to become true images of his Son, so that his Son might be the eldest of many brothers. (Romans 8:29)

...if God has made you son, then he has made you heir. (Gal 4:7)

The Kingdom of God does not come visibly, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is, ' because the kingdom of God is within you. (Luke 17:20-21)

He has given us all the things that we need for life and for true devotion, bringing us to know God himself... through them you will be able to share the divine nature. (2 Peter 1:3-4)

Heresy huh....

In XC
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I understand this is pretty deep theology, but where did I say we become God in the sense of His ESSENCE again? You did see the post where I explained term ESSENCE right?

Once again, becoming God doesn’t mean we become all knowing, all-powerful, or that we will remember saying, “let there be light”. It means becoming Christ…you can’t tell me you never made the statement that you are “becoming Christ-like”…I did all the time in my previous Baptist Church…it’s somewhat the same principle…

And how exactly do you SHARE something with someone, without giving him or her a portion of what you have?

Are we going to run into the same issue with the English language as we have in the “Prove It” thread in regard to “IF”? Please, I certainly hope not…

In XC
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Children of God

Paul teaches that as Adam was the first man, so Christ is the "last Adam," superseding all that has come before. All who are born in him will be children of God, so even more surely than we are children of Adam; we are the children of Christ. Elsewhere, Paul describes us as being given the "spirit of sons," and declares that "the Spirit and our spirit bear united witness that we are children of God. And if we are children, we are heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ’s, sharing his sufferings so as to share his glory." (Rom. 8:15-17)

Sharing his glory. Don't know about you, but that's some heavy theology. We will share his glory!

Theosis is described in Scripture in many ways children inheriting from their Father and growing up to be like their Father is just one example. This is present even in the first chapter of the Bible. After God creates animal life by telling the earth to produce every kind of creature (Gen. 1-24-25), God does something completely different with man. He makes man directly, not indirectly, and makes him "male and female" to be like him, charged with ruling the rest of creation. (1:26-27) The implication is man is a little god, by the grace of God. Of course, we all know that in Genesis 3 something went wrong with that!

In XC
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Sounds like the Word of Faith heresy to me!

 

Benny Hinn believes that the trinity has nine persons to it: three parts to each person.
He also said: "We are little gods running around on this earth."
Now that sounds like Agnus's Orthodoxy.

 

Matthew 10:2-4 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.
--These were the first "Baptist fathers", save Judas Iscariot, who was later replaced by Matthias. I will pit their writings and work against "St. Basil" any time.

No need for forgiveness on that point. I know heresy when I see it.

As you have already seen, I am not the only one who considers your church's position as heretical. It is not my ears that are alien. It is the doctrine that you are advocating.

That is almost the exact teaching of the Jehovah's Witness:

John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.
--They apply your teaching to Christ himself. There are two Gods they say: a greater God and a lesser god, the lesser god being Jesus Christ. That is the teaching gained from John 1:1. Like you say: "Jesus knew the Father; he was fully human and essentially divine, but not part of the trinity. They don't believe that. It is quite similar to what you are putting forth. Your beliefs about Christians parallel the J.W.'s about Christ. Sad!

Now to exactly what you said:
"Becoming God...really means becoming Christ, or becoming divine."
--And I respond with "heresy!"
Mormons believe that.
The serpent in the Garden of Eden tried to deceive Eve into believing that.
And now someone is trying to make you believe the same lie.

No creature of this dust can become divine in any way, shape or form. It is an impossibility. The Almighty God is above all and cannot be compared to any of his creatures.

Isaiah 45:21-22 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.
22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
--There is no other god. There is no one else who can claim deity or divinity or divine.
In fact Jesus said:

Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
--Forget about divinity or deity, don't even refer to yourself as "good," for you are not. Only God is good.

It is not difficult. It is heretical.

We only come from God in that we are God's creation. Spiritually speaking, and that is what you are doing when you use the phrase "children of God," 98% of the (approximately) are children of the devil. They are not of God; they are of the god of this world (Eph.2:1-3; John 8:44).

Yes, it indicates two things.
1. The necessity of the new birth (John 1:13; 3:1-7)
2. The necessity of believing on him for salvation (by faith and faith alone) John 1:12.

Perhaps that comes from your Tradition which you throw in the garbage.
It doesn't come from the Scriptures. There is nothing that "makes us also Christ." That is heresy. Christ is God, the second person of the triune Godhead, who sits at the right had of God the Father, born of a virgin, lived and died and rose again (a bodily resurrection), is coming a second time in power and glory, and will set up his glorious kingdom on earth for a thousand year reign. He is the King of Kings, the Lord of Lords to whom every knee shall bow and every tongue confess. He is the one who will sit on the Great White Throne Judgement and give the final sentence to all those who rejected him to be cast into the Lake of Fire to be tormented day and night forever and ever.
To dare say that any person or group of persons "makes us Christ" is blasphemy. To make that claim that you are or will become Christ is blasphemy.

Here is what the Scripture says:

1 John 3:1-2 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
--It says:
When he shall appear we shall be like him.
It is referring to the resurrection body, and that is all. We shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. The emphasis is on the seeing what he is like, and being like him in that respect.
--It has nothing to do with becoming Christ; becoming deity; becoming divine. To become a child of God simply means to be born again. One is born again by believing on the sacrifice that Christ made for us; by believing on Christ Himself.

Really it is not necessary. There is enough heresy posted already.

 

Can't help wondering about the eternal destiny of people like Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland, Joel Whats-his-name with the basketball arena, etc.

 

Hence the forum "Other 'Christian' Denominations"...Don't like it, don't participate...

In XC
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The first chapter of the Holy Bible declares the purpose of our life already, when the author tells us that God created man “…in His image and likeness.” We thus ascertain the great love that the Triune God has for man: He does not wish him simply to be a being with certain gifts, certain qualities, a certain superiority over the rest of creation, but He wishes him to be a god by Grace.

Externally, man seems to be just a biological being, like other living beings as the animals. Of course, man is an animal, but “an animal ... which can be deified through its inclination towards God”, as St. Gregory the Theologian characteristically says. He is the only being that stands apart from all creation; the only one, which can become a god.

“In His image” refers to the gifts, which God gave only to man, alone among all His creatures, so that he constitutes an image of God. These gifts are: a rational mind (what we call “nous”), conscience, and self-authority, in other words freedom, creativity, eros, and the yearning for the absolute and for God, personal self-awareness, and anything else which puts man above all other living beings in creation, and makes him a man and a personality. In other words, everything that makes man a person. These are the gifts of the “in His image”.

Having been formed “in His image”, man is called upon to be acquire the “in His likeness”, in other words, deification (theosis). The Creator, God by nature, calls man to become a god by Grace.

The gifts of “in His image” were given to man by God so that that he may ascend very high; so that through them he may attain a likeness to God and Creator; so that he may have not an external, moral relationship, but a personal union with his Creator.

Sadly, many assume that the purpose of our life is, at best, simply moral improvement, to become better men, whereas this is not what is given to us by the Gospel, by the Tradition of the Church, and by the Fathers: that man should only improve, become more moral, more just, more self-controlled, more mindful. All these must be done, but they are not the great purpose, the final purpose for which our Maker and Creator formed man. What is this purpose? Deification (Theosis), for man to be united with God, not in an external or a sentimental way, but ontologically, really.

ICXC NIKA
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The Church Fathers say that God became man in order to make man a god. Man would not be able to attain deification (Theosis) if God had not become incarnate.

In the Old Testament, we also find just and virtuous people. But the full union with God, Theosis, becomes possible, is attained, with the incarnation of the Divine Logos.

This is the purpose of the incarnation of God. If the purpose of man's life was simply to become morally better, there would be no need for Christ to come into the world, for all these events of divine Providence to take place; for the incarnation of God; the cross, the death and resurrection of the Lord; all that we Christians believe to have happened by Christ. The human race could have been taught to become morally better by the prophets, the philosophers, the righteous men and teachers, just as well.

We know that Adam and Eve were beguiled by the devil and wanted to become gods, but not in collaboration with God; not through humility, obedience, or love; but relying on their own power, their own will, egotistically and autonomously. That is to say that the essence of the fall is egotism. Thus, by adopting egotism and self-reliance, they separated themselves from God, and instead of attaining deification (Theosis), they attained exactly the opposite: spiritual death.

We all know the consequences of the fall. Separation from God cast man into a carnal, bestial and demonic life. The brilliant creation of God fell seriously ill, almost to death. What had been made “in His image” was sullied. Since the fall, man no longer has the preconditions for proceeding to deification (Theosis), as he had before he sinned. In this situation of grave illness, almost dead, he can no longer re-orient himself towards God. Thus there is a need for a new root for humanity, a need for a new man, who will be healthy and able to redirect the freedom of man towards God.

This new root, the new man, is the God-man, Jesus Christ, the Son and Logos of God, who incarnates to become the new root, the new beginning, the new leaven of humanity.

As St. Gregory Nazianzen, the Theologian, says in his writings, with the incarnation of the Logos a second communion between God and humanity is realized. The first such communion was in Paradise. This, however, was broken. Man was separated from God. The all-good God then provided for another, a second communion, which can no longer be severed, that is, a union of God and men. Because this, the second communion of God and men happens in the person of Christ.

The God-man Christ, the Son and Logos of God the Father, has two perfect natures: divine and human. These two perfect natures are joined “without change, without confusion, without separation, and without division” in the one person of Christ, according to the definition of the Fourth Ecumenical Council at Chalcedon, which, in summary, constitutes the theological armor of our Orthodox Church, given under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, against Christological heresies of all kinds throughout all ages. Thus, we have one Christ with two natures, divine and human.

Now, by means of the union of the two natures in the person of Christ, human nature is irrevocably united with divine nature, because Christ is the eternal God-man. As the God-man, He ascended to heaven. As the God-man, He sits on the right hand of the Father. As the God-man, He will come to judge the world at the Second Coming. Therefore, human nature is now enthroned in the bosom of the Holy Trinity. No longer can anything cut off human nature from God. So, now, after the incarnation of the Lord no matter how much we as men sin, no matter how much we detach ourselves from God, if, through repentance, we wish to unite again with God, we can succeed. We can unite with Him and so become gods by Grace.

In XC
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This says that "human nature" cannot be cut off from God because Jesus became the God-man. We have been reconciled to God because God sent the God-man with a human nature.

I thought it was Jesus' blood that was shed on the cross that reconciled us to God.



This sounds like cult talk to me.

 

First, this theology is far from being anti-Christian or anti-biblical, it’s been taught for 2,000 years and its certainly Biblical…you label it cultic and heresy when you don’t understand what Theosis is or that even many of the main line Protestant Churches teach a type of Theosis (The Methodist Church is were I was first introduced to this)…some however take this teaching to the extreme such as the Mormons, which I’ve already explained.

God created us in His image and in His likeness, apparently you either haven’t thought of or was taught why God created man in the first place and what the goal of man was in the beginning that God desired and was thus thwarted by the evil one and Christ re-established by His death and Resurrection, but that’s not your fault…

Being from NY, you may have heard of the Orthodox Church, but many here never have as attested by their responses, some have even admitted that they don’t know much about Orthodoxy (being from Tennessee, my mother thought I was becoming Jewish…LOL)…some here would like to understand, which is my intention…you can read and try to understand and come to your own conclusions, and if you reject it, that’s your freedom to do so, but to come out and label me a heretic, simply because you don’t understand and even try to understand shows more of your prejudice and fear, than anything else. The reason I *haven't answered many responses, is because their minds already made up and there’s others that do ask in light of learning more.

You’re not going to convince me otherwise…I was a Baptist from birth till I decided to leave the denomination at 33 years of age…I studied, read and prayed for close to 5 years, spending much time, first cleansing myself from my judgmental thought process that 33 years of being a fundamental Baptist done to me and the rest I immersed myself in Church History and theology, spending a school year in RCIA and a year in Orthodox Catechesis, before joining the Orthodox Church last Pentecost.

I praise God every day that He led me to His Church.

ICXC NIKA
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The quote in question says: Therefore, human nature is now enthroned in the bosom of the Holy Trinity. No longer can anything cut off human nature from God.

I know this is an “Atonement” thread, but as is common, we’ve gotten side tracted, but still the two is somewhat connected.

The quote is saying that since God took on our human nature and Christ is sitting at the right hand of the Father, nothing can cut off human nature from God.

We’re not talking about the blood shed on the cross, reconciling man to God, although that event is what enabled us to once again attain the goal that God set out for us in the beginning…

Does that help…I don’t want to be burned at the cyber stake…

In XC
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The hang up could stem again from knowing what God’s essence is and what His energies are. Some have a tough time understanding the Orthodox theology of Theosis, due mainly because they don’t discern between the essence and the energy of God, many say God is only essence. And for this reason they cannot speak about man's deification or Theosis, because, according to them, how could man be deified when they do not accept that the divine energies are uncreated, but regard them as created? And how could something created, i.e., something outside God, deify created man?

In order not to fall into pantheism, they do not speak at all about Theosis. What then, according to some, remains as the purpose of man's life; simply moral improvement? In other words, since man cannot be deified by means of divine Grace, the divine energies, what purpose does his life have? Only that he becomes morally better. But moral perfection is not enough for man. It is not enough for us simply to become better than before, to perform moral deeds. We have as our final aim to unite with holy God Himself. This is the purpose of the creation of the universe. This is what we desire. This is our joy, our happiness, and our fulfillment.

The psyche of man, who is created in the image and likeness of God, yearns for God and desires union with Him. No matter how moral, how good man may be, no matter how many good deeds he may perform, if he does not find God, if he does not unite with Him, he finds no rest. Because holy God Himself placed within him this holy thirst, the divine eros, the desire for union with Him, for Theosis. He has in himself the erotic power, which he receives from his Creator, in order to love truly, strongly, selflessly, and just as his holy Creator falls in love with His world, with His creatures. This is so that with this holy erotic impetus and loving power, he falls in love with God. If man did not have the image of God in him, he would not be able to seek its prototype. Each of us is an image of God, and God is our prototype. The image seeks the prototype, and only when it finds it does it find rest.

St. Gregory Palamas, declared that life in Christ is not simply the moral edification of man, but deification or Theosis, and that this means participation in God’s glory, a vision of God, of His Grace and His uncreated light.

A Christian is not a Christian simply because he is able to talk about God. He is a Christian because he is able to have experience of God. And just as, when you really love someone and converse with him, you feel his presence, and you enjoy his presence, so it happens in man's communion with God: there exists not a simply external relationship, but a mystical union of God and man in the Holy Spirit.

Even now, Catholics consider the divine Grace, or the energy of God, as something created. Unfortunately, this also is one of the many differences, which must be seriously taken into consideration in theological dialogue with the Roman Catholics. It is not only the filioque, the primacy of authority, and the ‘infallibility’ of the Pope which are basic differences between the Orthodox Church and the Catholics. It is also the above. If the Roman Catholics do not accept that the Grace of God is uncreated, we Orthodox cannot unite with them even if they accept all the other points. For who is able to effect deification or Theosis, if divine Grace is a creation and not an uncreated energy of the All-Holy Spirit?

In XC
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C.S. Lewis...Mere Christianity

Not sure if anyone’s ever read C.S. Lewis’ Mere Christianity, if not it’s a good read. Anyway, since its been awhile since I read this work, I thought that C.S. Lewis wrote a bit about Theosis, so I dusted off my copy and went hunting…If you have a copy, turn to page 174…

The command “Be ye perfect” is not idealistic gas. Nor is it a command to do the impossible. He is going to make us into creatures that can obey that command. He said (in the Bible) that we were “gods” and He is going to make good His words. If we let Him-for we can prevent Him, if we choose-He will make the feeblest and filthiest of us into a god or goddess, dazzling, radiant, immortal creatures, pulsating all through with such energy and joy and wisdom and love as we cannot now imagine, a bright stainless mirror which reflects back to Him perfectly (though, of course, on a smaller scale) His own boundless power and delight and goodness. The process will be long and in parts very painful; but that is what we are in for. Nothing less. He meant what he said.​

C. S. Lewis understood this concept and expressed it compellingly.

With the Incarnation, God has assumed and glorified our flesh and has consecrated and sanctified our humanity. He has also given us the Holy Spirit. As we acquire more of the Holy Spirit in our daily lives, we become more like Christ, and we have the opportunity of being granted, in this life, illumination or glorification. When we speak of acquiring more of the Holy Spirit, it is in the sense of appropriating to a greater degree what has actually been given to us already by God. We acquire more of what we are more able to receive. God the Holy Spirit remains ever constant.

In XC
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Actually, much of what you have written in this thread sounds quite compatible with Catholic thinking. Have you considered Catholicism? I was a Catholic for 38 years, so some of your views seem familiar to what I heard growing up.