1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured The Basis of Christian Unity

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Martin Marprelate, Nov 14, 2016.

Top Posters
Page 3 of 3
  1. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2010
    Messages:
    8,817
    Likes Received:
    2,106
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Here is my OP again. I may possibly have missed something, but I can't see where you have made any real attempt to deal with the substance of it

    In the light of various threads, I feel that this is an important question to consider. There seem to be four differing views on the subject.
    1. The Church of Rome view which proclaims that the Reformation was a great mistake and that all churches should come together under her who is the 'one and only true church of Christ.'
    2. All that is required is a visible unity. All those who declare themselves Christian should come together in some sort of umbrella movement and work together for the progress of Christianity without worrying about Gospel distinctives. Their slogan is, "Doctrine divides; service unites."
    3. The 'Gospel Unity' view. This is the view that there is no unity outside the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. That unless there is agreement on the fundamentals of Christianity, particularly on the Person and work of Christ, the New Birth and the Divine inspiration, authority and sufficiency of the Bible, there can be no real church unity. But if these are agreed on, differences on the administration of ordinances and on Church order should not prevent fellowship between churches.
    4. The 'Exclusivist' view. This is the view of KJV-only people, Landmarkists and some sections of the Reformed churches. With these people, fellowship between churches can only take place when there is total agreement on their particular distinctives.

    Here I am going to argue for the third alternative. Not to say that Baptist distinctives are irrelevant or unimportant, but to say that they should not preclude Gospel fellowship.

    The two texts that treat most especially on the question of unity are John 17:21 and Ephesians 4:13, and the verses surrounding each text. I will look at John 17 in this post and consider Ephesians 4, which is more complicated, in a later post (DV).

    John 17:20-22. "I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in you; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me, and the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one."
    The Lord Jesus has previously said that He is not praying for the world (v.9). He is praying here specifically for those who will come to believe through the Apostolic message- the Gospel. His prayer is that 'they all may be one;' not just a few, but all. The reason why our Lord desires this unity is 'that the world may believe that you sent Me.' The unbelieving world is not impressed with disunity. When they hear a babel of discordant voices, they are not likely to listen, and if they do, they are very likely to miss the truth.
    The unity for which He prays is the same unity that exists between the Persons of the blessed Trinity. That is a unity of essence. There are three persons and yet one God with a unity of outlook and thought and purpose and love, yet there remains a distinction of Person.
    This unity is not something new; it is already in existence. In vs.11-12, our Lord says, "[From] Now I am now longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You, Holy Father. Keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are. While I was with them I kept them in Your name......" So the unity was there already, and now that the Son is leaving the earth, He prays to the Father to keep them. So this unity which is to pertain to the Church of Christ is one of essence. What makes a Christian is not a mere profession, nor an outward ordinance, but being a 'partaker of the divine nature' (2 Peter 1:4), born again of the Spirit of God. Not indeed, made divine, but being indwelt by the Spirit of God. It is these, and no others, for whom the Lord prays, that they may be one. "......Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the Son of perdition, that the Scriptures might be fulfilled." Judas is not one of them. He was among them but was not of them. He participated with them but his heart was not changed. So it is not outward professors who have this unity, but those who are born from above.

    So the unity is not of man, but of God. It is not a group of people deciding to found a new denomination or a new society. It is not a matter of friendship or mutual admiration; it is of God, a unity of those who have been born of Him. And since the Lord Jesus prays for this unity, it must be an established fact. There is a further unity; the 'perfect' or 'complete' unity of v.23. This is something for the future and has to do with Ephesians 4:11-14 which I hope to write on later.

    The Lord Jesus continues (v.24), "Father, I desire that they also whom You have given Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory." There is no question of some of these people being outside of the New Jerusalem because they are not part of some mythical 'Baptist Bride.' No, no! All the elect will be together on that last day, before the throne and before the Lamb (Revelation 7:9-10).
     
    #41 Martin Marprelate, Nov 21, 2016
  2. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2010
    Messages:
    8,817
    Likes Received:
    2,106
    Faith:
    Baptist
    More than 50 years before that, in 1784, the Particular Baptist John Sutcliffe, who was intimately involved in the revival in the Baptist churches in England at the turn of the 18th/19th centuries was encouraging churches to come together for prayer:

    The grand object of prayer is to be that the Holy Spirit may be poured down on our ministers and churches, that sinners may be converted, the saints edified, the interest of religion revived and the name of God glorified. At the same time, remember, we trust you will not confine your requests to your own societies {i.e. churches]; or to your own immediate connection [i.e. denomination]; let the whole interest of the Redeemer be affectionately remembered, and the spread of the gospel to the most distant parts of the habitable globe be the object of your most fervent requests. We shall rejoice if any other Christian societies of our own or other denominations will unite with us, and do now invite them most cordially to join heart and hand in the event. [emphasis mine]

    The same call was repeated in 1786 and in the following years. The prayers were graciously answered in great increases in Baptist churches and in the start of the Baptist Missionary Society with William Carey.
     
    #42 Martin Marprelate, Nov 21, 2016
  3. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    16,008
    Likes Received:
    481
    I may be mistaken but I believe I have been defending #4 above and I believe that John 17:20-22 is the central theme of your OP and I addressed that explicitly. It would seem that my first posts and succeeding posts have been right down that alley?
     
    #43 The Biblicist, Nov 21, 2016
  4. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2010
    Messages:
    8,817
    Likes Received:
    2,106
    Faith:
    Baptist
    You are mistaken. I have not seen you engage with John 17. except to mention verse 17 which I answered. Other than that you have not mentioned the chapter at all that I can see.
     
    #44 Martin Marprelate, Nov 22, 2016
  5. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    26,977
    Likes Received:
    2,536
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I jumped past all the verbose posts.

    There are many phases of church unity.

    Personally, the bottom horrendous line as a former Catholic would be unity with the RCC.

    However I have/had no qualms about marching with Catholics in a pro-life demonstration i.e. - Washington State March For Life (when I was able to walk long distance) - but that does not mean I will go to their church to say the rosary before the march.

    Scripture, the Spirit and my heart are the deciding factors.

    HankD
     
    #45 HankD, Nov 22, 2016
  6. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    16,008
    Likes Received:
    481
    I think you are being extreme in your judging of my posts. I went back and read them and they are all about the basis for spiritual unity and in defense of position #4. I think other unbiased readers would confirm that. I reread your OP and the heart of it is about what is essential to unity between Christians and that is precisely what every single post I have offered speaks about - that very issue. I think the real problem is that you don't like what I have to offer concerning the very heart of your OP.
     
    #46 The Biblicist, Nov 22, 2016
  7. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    26,977
    Likes Received:
    2,536
    Faith:
    Baptist
    What OP B? I though your presentations were very good, I was just stating my point of view from a former Catholic POV and how it applies in my case. Sorry for the disconnect. The health of a local church is very important and it must be protected from any infection from alien sources.

    HankD
     
    #47 HankD, Nov 22, 2016
  8. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    16,008
    Likes Received:
    481
    17 ¶ Sanctify them through your truth: your word is truth.
    18 As you have sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
    19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
    20 ¶ Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
    21 That they all may be one; as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that you have sent me.
    22 And the glory which you gave me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
    23 I in them, and you in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that you have sent me, and have loved them, as you have loved me.
    24 ¶ Father, I will that they also, whom you have given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which you have given me: for you loved me before the foundation of the world.
    25 O righteous Father, the world has not known you: but I have known you, and these have known that you have sent me.
    26 And I have declared to them your name, and will declare it: that the love with which you have loved me may be in them, and I in them.

    Verses 17-19 is about the basis of sanctification - separated by the word of truth

    Verses 20-21 is Christ's prayer that the word of truth will be shared with future generations or the unity of believers in the word of truth and in glory one day.

    Verses 22-23 is about the "glory" of Christ that the Father gave the Son. Here, the word "glory" refers to the honor bestowed upon the Son by the Father because of his fidelty to the Word of Truth. Sanctification provides unity in truth and that is what God honors - unity in truth.

    Verses 24-25 - Refers to the glory the Father bestowed on the Son before the world was created - here Glory refers to his divine majesty as Deity and intimate knowledge of the divine Trinity of one another.

    Verse 26 refers to the "name" of God or that which represents His attributes, revealed will and authority. This is the love of God that we keep His commandments. To gather "in his name" is to gather in accordance to His revealed will and authority. Here again is unity based upon truth, the truth in Christ that he revealed to them that demonstrates his love for the Father and the love in them for the Father.

    Conclusion: True unity is based on truth and truth is determined by being set apart by the Word of God. Christ was totally set apart unto God by obedience of the truth. This was the basis of His "glory" bestowed upon him by the Father as one who always did that which pleased the Father.
     
    #48 The Biblicist, Nov 22, 2016
  9. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    16,008
    Likes Received:
    481
    Hank, I wasn't responding to your post. I was responding to Martins accusation that I did not deal with the substance of his OP which is what is the basis of unity between Christians.
     
    #49 The Biblicist, Nov 22, 2016
  10. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    26,977
    Likes Received:
    2,536
    Faith:
    Baptist
    oops, my bad, sorry B.

    HankD
     
    #50 HankD, Nov 22, 2016
  11. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    All who are saved are part of the Same Body of Christ, as per Paul in Ephesians 4!
     
    #51 Yeshua1, Nov 23, 2016
  12. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The truth though is that EACH on eof those gatherings represent the local church!
     
    #52 Yeshua1, Nov 23, 2016
  13. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2010
    Messages:
    8,817
    Likes Received:
    2,106
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Once again you have made no effort even to touch on what I wrote in the OP. You have given your own exposition of John 17, but not dealt with anything I have said. The kernel of what I see as Christian unity is this.

    The unity for which [Christ] prays is the same unity that exists between the Persons of the blessed Trinity. That is a unity of essence. There are three persons and yet one God with a unity of outlook and thought and purpose and love, yet there remains a distinction of Person.
    This unity is not something new; it is already in existence. In vs.11-12, our Lord says, "[From] Now I am now longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You, Holy Father. Keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are. While I was with them I kept them in Your name......" So the unity was there already, and now that the Son is leaving the earth, He prays to the Father to keep them. So this unity which is to pertain to the Church of Christ is one of essence. What makes a Christian is not a mere profession, nor an outward ordinance, but being a 'partaker of the divine nature' (    2 Peter 1:4), born again of the Spirit of God. Not indeed, made divine, but being indwelt by the Spirit of God. It is these, and no others, for whom the Lord prays, that they may be one.

    Christian unity is not based on outward ordinances but is one of essence.
    I am finished on this forum for a while, so you are free not to deal with the OP again if you want.
     
    #53 Martin Marprelate, Nov 24, 2016
  14. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    16,008
    Likes Received:
    481
    It was a complete rebutal of your choice of the options you gave in your OP based on this text. The unity in this context is first based on TRUTH (vv. 17-23)




    No! The essence of unity is the "GLORY" of the context which is TRUTH as this unites the Father with the Son in his incarnation as He is "the WORD". There is not another God! Unity of ESSENCE has to do with what makes God to be God. The essence of God is "spirit" but so is the essence of angels but what makes God's essence or "spirit" unique is its ATTRIBUTES.


    The unifying essence is "Your Name" which represents the TRUTH of his will, nature and authority. He kept the eleven faithful to His will - they were unified in HIS WORD.
    You are preaching another gospel that what has been preached from Genesis as your gospel has no origin before Pentecost (according to how you define Pentecost). You are denying anyone prior to Pentecost were in SPIRITUAL UNION with God thus demanding they were all in a state of SPIRITUAL SEPARATION which is spiritual death. Paul says all that "are in the flesh" with regard to this SPIRITUAL STATE are "none of his" and that is precisely what you are demanding of all living prior to Pentecost. Again I place the Biblical evidence before your face that your penteocst baptismal churh salvation is a false gospel:

    1. ALL "in Adam" are "in the flesh" (phsyical union) because they have been "BORN of the flesh" without any kind of baptism or church membeship

    ALL "in Christ" are "in the Spirit" (spiritual union) because they have been "BORN of the Spirit" without any kind of baptism or church membership.

    2. ALL "in Adam" had been CREATED in Adam, likewise, ALL"in Christ" have been "CREATED in Christ" by new birth (Eph. 2:1-10) not by any kind of baptism or church membership.

    3.No baptism in the Spirit (as you define it) preceded Pentecost and so no one could be "in Christ" as you define it previous to Pentecost and there is no salvation OUTSIDE of Christ for anyone at any time thus repudiating your theory altogether as your theory demands ANOTHER WAY of salvation OUTSIDE Christ before Pentecost.

    4. The NT church cannot precede its own "foundation" which consists of NT materials (apostles) FIRST being "set in" the church by God not OT people of God thus repudiating your whole theory as you define "in Christ" as synonymous with being in the church body of Christ. Thus again, your theory demands another way of salvation prior to Matthew.

    5.ALL "in Adam" have been born into this world in a state of SPIRITUAL SEPARATION from God and that is the how Paul uses the descriptive phrase "in the flesh" in Romans 8:8 and ALL who are "in the flesh" in that spiritual sense are "NONE OF HIS" - Rom. 8:9 - whereas ALL of his are "in the Spirit" which he defines as synonymous with "indwelt by the Spirit" or SPIRITUAL UNION - Rom. 8:9

    6. Spiritual SEPARATION which is spiritual DEATH and this is the universal problem and the ONLY possible universal solution to this problem is Spiritual UNION which is spirtual LIFE and that is what BIRTH/quickening NOT any kind of baptism or church membership.
     
    #54 The Biblicist, Nov 25, 2016
  15. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The NT Church, Body of Christ, was founded upon Cross/Resurrection of Jesus, and teacing of Apostles, as te coming of the Holy Spirit on Pentacost fulfilled OT typology, an was th creation of a brand new group, Church of Christ!
     
    #55 Yeshua1, Dec 10, 2016
  16. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Disagree with all off that?
     
    #56 Yeshua1, Dec 13, 2016
(You must log in or sign up to post here.)
Page 3 of 3
Loading...