The basis of God's choice

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by AresMan, Nov 14, 2009.

  1. AresMan

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    In the thread Where does believing faith come from part 3 the following conversation ensued:

    Amy.G's first question--"[O]n what basis does God choose one person over another [if His choice is not random]?"--is valid and needs elaboration, especially in these debates about the logical order of regeneration and faith.

    Amy.G then proceeded to follow up on the inquiry: "It was said that God does not choose randomly who [sic] He will save. So there must be a reason that He chooses to save one and passes over another. What is that reason? If there is no reason or basis for His choices, then He chooses randomly."

    The portions in bold above indeed are true and important to understand. I know of noone here who believes that God does anything randomly. With an infinite, omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent God, everything He does has a purpose and a reason. The questions then are what is the reason, and is this reason revealed or explained to us?

    I assume that we all believe that the 66 books of the canon are the inerrant, inspired, and infallible Word of God. We believe in the verbal, plenary inspiration of the Scriptures and that the Bible is the sole authority for all matters of faith and practice. This also means that the Bible is the final revelation of God that He has revealed to us. Whatever He has revealed, we believe as truth regardless of whether we fully understand it. If we try to understand God apart from His revelation, we must conceed that such arguments are mere speculative rather than authoritative.

    Accordingly, does the Bible then reveal or explain to us God's reasons that form the basis of His election?

    Here are a few passages that state God's basis for choices:
    The Bible has aught to say that God has a purpose in the things that He does and as the basis for His choices: for His pleasure, for His glory, for His will. Does the Bible explain to us (humans) in a humanistic logic why what He does and chooses brings Him pleasure? I cannot find much, if anything.

    Is it necessary for God to explain to us His actions and choices in a way that will satisfy our human rationale? He is God and we are not. He is a separate agent. It is not essential for us to understand the rationale for God's choices to know that He does have a rationale. Our lack of a Scriptural human rationale for God's actions and choices does not relegate them to randomness.
     
  2. webdog

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    Ares, that really is a mish mosh of passages thrown together to support your position. Even in the Ephesians 1 passage we are chosen "in Him". Scripture is clear why we are chosen, and while it is His good pleasure to do so, He has told us in Scripture we are chosen in Christ.
     
  3. Winman

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    In the parable of the marriage in Matthew chapter 22 it is clearly shown that those who obey God's call and come to the wedding with the wedding garment on are the chosen.

    Those whom he first called did not obey and were not chosen. But it is very important not to overlook that they were clearly called, it was God's will that they come. This disproves Total Inabiltiy (they could have come), Limited Atonement (all were invited), and Irresistable Grace (they refused to obey).

    Matt 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
    3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
    4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.
    5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:
    6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.
    7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.


    You cannot say God did not call these people. He clearly did. And it is also clearly shown that men can resist God's calling.

    Of those that did come, one did not have on the wedding garment. This represents the righteousness of Christ imputed to those who believe. This man was religious, but he was unsaved. He was cast out.

    Matt 22:11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
    12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
    13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


    This strengthens the argument against Total Depravity or Inability. This man actually came to the wedding. It is shown. But he did not have on the proper wedding garment. And it is clearly shown that that was his personal responsibility. He was expected to come with this wedding garment on, it was not the the king's duty to dress him, it was his own responsibility to be properly dressed. This shows man plays a role and responsibility in salvation.

    But those who obeyed the calling and bidding of God, and came prepared wearing the wedding garment were the chosen, the elect.

    Matt 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
     
    #3 Winman, Nov 14, 2009
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  4. Winman

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    Another example showing that God chooses or elects those who believe is Romans chapter 11. This chapter also shows that a man who is not at present elect because of unbelief, if that man repents to believe can become the elect again.

    The Jews were God's elect or chosen people. But not all believed.

    Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
    2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
    3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
    4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
    5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
    6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.


    Here Paul explains that God did not cast away his chosen or elect people. There were seven thousand Jews who did not bow the knee to the image of Baal. Please note that God gives a reason for them being chosen here. They remained faithful while the other Jews did not. And this was according to the election of grace which is explained not of works. They were not saved because of works, they were saved because of faith.

    In this same passage, Paul compares the Jews to the "good" or "natural" olive tree. This was God's chosen or elect people. But the Jews who did not believe were broken off this good or natural olive tree. Gentiles who do believe on Christ are called the "wild" olive tree or branches and are graffed into the natural tree.

    And it clearly explains why these Jews were broken off, because of unbelief. This shows that election is based on faith.

    Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
    18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
    19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
    20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
    21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.


    But now, here is a very important point. Paul shows that if an unbelieveing Jew were to turn from unbelief, God is able to graff them into their own tree once again. They were the chosen or elect, but because of unbelief were broken off, but they can be graffed back in and become the elect once again.

    Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
    24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree??


    So God does not determine from the foundation of the world who will believe, although God in his foreknowledge knows who will believe or not.

    A man's belief or unbelief is not predetermined by God. If a man is unbelieveing, he is the non-elect. But if that man turns from unbelief and trusts in Christ, he then becomes the elect.
     
    #4 Winman, Nov 14, 2009
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  5. OldRegular

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    [this offensive and repetitive accusation need not to be repeated]
     
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  6. Winman

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    How does a person choosing Christ make man sovereign? I promise you, I am not running the universe whatsoever. God is still in charge.

    This is an absurd argument. God gives man the ability to make a choice, and holds him accountable for the choices he makes.

    If your doctrine is true, then God is the author and finisher of sin. If a man does not believe, it is because he is created a sinner. I did not create myself, God did, and he is responsible for the moral condition I was created in. The only one who can alter this lost condition is God, so if I die an unsaved sinner, then this too is God's fault 100%. Does the clay pot mold itself?

    So, your doctrine makes God the author and finisher of sin. Exactly the opposite of what the scriptures say.

    And you make God to be a person who will not accept responsibility for his own works and actions, and who unjustly punishes others for his own acts.

    You know, child abusers should use this defense. They should tell the judge, "The child was mine, I made him, he belongs to me and I can do whatever I wish with my child. He cried and it was annoying me, so I slammed his head into the wall. I am not guilty of any crime, I have the perfect right to do whatever I want with that that is mine."

    This is how you view God, he can create us solely for the pleasure of tormenting us forever in the lake of fire, and it is completely OK, because he made us and he is sovereign. This is actually what you teach.
     
    #6 Winman, Nov 14, 2009
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  7. Amy.G

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    Calvinists, on what basis does God elect? Or is it random? It's one or the other.
     
  8. Jeep Dragon

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    God does give man the ability to make a choice and holds him accountable for the choices he makes. But,...

    Can someone please explain to me how someone can "choose" to believe something? If I hear someone, either I will believe it or not. Can I just at my own whim "choose" freely to believe something, then it is somehow at that point ingrained into my psyche? I have to be convinced that it is true. Once I am convinced that it is true, it is ingrained into my psyche.

    Oh... I just heard something... should I or should I not "believe" it? Hmmmm.... I think I will just "choose" to believe it... *boing* *poof* *zip* *botta bing* *ala kazam*... now all of the sudden I believe it and it is ingrained into my psyche and into my heart after I just made a whim-full free-will "choice" to believe it.

    People make choices based on what they currently believe. People are accountable for what they choose to do, but it is based on what they believe. People have to be convinced to believe things that they do not currently believe. That is why people must hear the Gospel to believe it. :BangHead:

    Please, oh please, explain to me in Scripture how a person chooses to believe something. As a bonus, please convince me that the moon is made out of blue cheese, because I have a difficult time "freely choosing" to believe that if it just makes no sense to me at the moment without being convinced that it is the truth.
     
  9. Winman

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    Well, when it comes to Calvinists, this actually appears to be true. No matter how much scripture you show them that contradicts Calvinism (and there is volumes of scripture that do this), they cannot seem to shake it.

    I will agree with you that it is difficult for a person to change opinions on almost any subject. But we do see that. In the Politics forum just a week or two ago Robert Snow changed his opinions about President Obama. I can't speak for him, but it appears he saw a contradiction between Obama's promises and his actual actions in office.

    http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1473771#post1473771

    When I was a boy I thought John F. Kennedy was the greatest President ever. The media loved him and being young I was easily influenced by this. When I got older and heard he had numerous affairs I saw him in a different light. I really believe a President should set a good moral standard, his affairs had much to do with my changing my opinions of him.

    When I was a boy I thought Walt Disney was great and watched his show every Sunday night. But once I got saved I realized there was much occult in his cartoons. Mickey Mouse is actually known as the "Socerer's Apprentice" and is shown with the pointed hat and magic wand to this day. Many of his movies and cartoons glorify witchcraft and magic which God hates. So I absolutely changed my belief on this, I do not approve of his works.

    Exo 22:18 Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.

    Rev 9:21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

    By the way, a sorcerer is one that makes magic potions, that is, drugs. Many people are enslaved by drugs.

    When it comes to religion, it is the scriptures themselves that can change your belief. That is, if you will accept what they really say. I have known several Catholics that converted to being Baptists and who now admit the teachings of the RCC were error. By reading and studying the scriptures they realized this.

    God does not force someone to believe, he pursuades. There is a difference.

    2 Cor 5:11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

    Acts 28:23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.
    24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.


    Here Paul gathered all the Jews in Rome and expounded and testified from the scriptures, persuading them. Some believed, some did not. Some people are open-minded, some are not. Some will hear the truth, some will not.

    It is the truth of God's word that persuades. Here is a site called Omniology. The author of this site was an athiest who believed in evolution. But he had an honest heart and examined evidence honestly and came to be persuaded that the creation account in the scriptures was the truth.

    http://www.omniology.com/

    It is the truth that will set you free. If you honestly desire to know the truth, the scriptures will lead you into that truth. But you must be sincere and willing to go where the truth leads you, which may lead you to abandon beliefs you have held for many years.

    John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
     
    #9 Winman, Nov 14, 2009
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  10. OldRegular

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    This is sheer nonsense. God did not create you. You are the result of sexual relations between your parents. God created the first man and woman, Adam and Eve. Adam was given the free will to choose. He chose to rebel against God. Because of Adam's disobedience all mankind descended from Adam inherited the sin nature as the Apostle Paul shows:

    Romans 5:12. Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

    So you see God is not the author of sin unless you can present Scripture to show that he is. It is you who want to make God the author of sin.

    [offensive post deleted--false accusation of calling this poster ignorant and liar is unsubstantiated]
     
    #10 OldRegular, Nov 14, 2009
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  11. OldRegular

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    Amy

    You cannot answer the question why one person who hears the Gospel believes while another does not. Can you really explain why you believed?

    How can you expect any mortal to have the mind of God and know the basis for Him choosing some to Salvation in Jesus Christ and passing over others?


    You say:
    What do you mean by "the other"?
     
  12. webdog

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    What human being has access to another human beings mind? Can you answer that? There is your answer.
     
  13. Winman

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    You misunderstand these scriptures. Romans 5:12 does not say sin passed upon all men, it says death passed upon all men because they have sinned.

    God does not hold us accountable for our parent's sin.

    Deut 24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

    God never holds a person responsible for their parent's sin. A man is held responsible for his own sin.

    I do not believe young children who die early are bound for hell as Calvin taught some were. A person must be old enough to understand their actions, they must reach a certain age and maturity before God holds them accountable.

    And I do not believe God is a liar. When God says Jesus died for all men, I believe it 100%, when the scriptures say that God is not willing that any should perish, I believe that 100%. But Calvinist's believe neither.

    "If" the doctrines of Calvinism were true (and they are not), then God would indeed be a liar. Because according to you, only those fortunate few elect are chosen by God for salvation, and the vast majority are doomed to eternal torment before they are born. Calvinists say God does all things for his pleasure (I have seen this said many times), while the scriptures say God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked. So if Calvinism is true, then God lied in the scriptures.

    Eze 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

    And notice God tells them three times to turn from their sins, so do not tell me God does not expect man to play a part in his salvation.

    It is not me that makes God a liar, it is the doctrines of Calvinism.

    Next time you are in a hospital, go to the nursery at look at all those beautiful, innocent babies. And ask yourself if you could cast them into the lake of fire forever for your pleasure. This is what you teach.
     
    #13 Winman, Nov 14, 2009
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  14. OldRegular

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    The continued argument by you free willers that God forces people to believe is absolute nonsense. Scripture tells us:

    John 6:44. No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

    Now tell me how the Father drew you to Jesus Christ!
     
  15. OldRegular

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    Will you quote from my post where I said that God held us accountable for our parent's sin?
     
  16. OldRegular

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    Winman, I have posted the following several times on this Forum.


    Comment on News and Issues by R. Albert Mohler, Jr.

    The Salvation of the 'Little Ones': Do Infants who Die Go to Heaven?
    by R. Albert Mohler, Jr. and Daniel L. Akin
    The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary

    The death of an infant or young child is profoundly heartbreaking – perhaps the greatest grief a parent is called to bear. For Christian parents, there is the sure knowledge that our sovereign and merciful God is in control, but there is also a pressing question: Is our baby in heaven?

    This is a natural and unavoidable question, calling for our most careful and faithful biblical study and theological reflection. The unspeakable anguish of a parent’s heart demands our honest and humble searching of the Scriptures.

    Some are quick to answer this question out of sentimentality. Of course infants go to heaven, they argue, for how could God refuse a precious little one? The Universalist has a quick answer, for he believes that everyone will go to heaven. Some persons may simply suggest that elect infants go to heaven, while the non-elect do not, and must suffer endless punishment. Each of these easy answers is unsatisfactory.

    Mere sentimentalism ignores the Bible’s teaching which bears on the issue. We have no right to establish doctrine on the basis of what we hope may be true. We must draw our answers from what the Bible reveals to be true.

    Universalism is an unbiblical heresy. The Bible clearly teaches that we are born in sin and that God will not tolerate sinners. God has made one absolute and definitive provision for our salvation through the substitutionary atonement accomplished by Jesus Christ our Lord. Salvation comes to those who believe on. His name and confess him as Savior. The Bible teaches a dual destiny for the human race. The redeemed – those who are in Christ – will be raised to eternal life with the Father in Heaven. Those who have not believed in Christ and confessed Him as Lord will suffer eternal punishment in the fires of Hell. Universalism is a dangerous and unbiblical teaching. It offers a false promise and denies the Gospel.

    The Bible reveals that we are born marked by original sin, and thus we cannot claim that infants are born in a state of innocence. Any biblical answer to the question of infant salvation must start from the understanding that infants are born with a sin nature.

    The shifting of the focus to election actually avoids answering the question. We must do better, and look more closely at the issues at stake.

    Throughout the centuries, the church has offered several different answers to this question. In the early church, Ambrose believed that baptized infants went to heaven, while unbaptized infants did not, though they received immunity from the pains of hell. His first error was believing in infant baptism, and thus in baptismal regeneration. Baptism does not save, and it is reserved for believers – not for infants. His second error was his indulgence in speculation. Scripture does not teach such a half-way position which denies infants admission to heaven, but saves them from the peril of hell. Augustine, the great theologian of the fourth century, basically agreed with Ambrose, and shared his understanding of infant baptism.

    Others have taught that infants will have an opportunity to come to Christ after death. This position was held by Gregory of Nyssa, and is growing among many contemporary theologians, who claim that all, regardless of age, will have a post-mortem opportunity to confess Christ as Savior. The problem with this position is that Scripture teaches no such post-mortem opportunity. It is a figment of a theologian’s imagination, and must be rejected.

    Those who divide infants into the elect and non-elect seek to affirm the clear and undeniable doctrine of divine election. The Bible teaches that God elects persons to salvation from eternity, and that our salvation is all of grace. At first glance, this position appears impregnable in relation to the issue of infant salvation – a simple statement of the obvious. A second glance, however, reveals a significant evasion. What if all who die in infancy are among the elect? Do we have a biblical basis for believing that all persons who die in infancy are among the elect?

    We believe that Scripture does indeed teach that all persons who die in infancy are among the elect. This must not be based only in our hope that it is true, but in a careful reading of the Bible. We start with the biblical affirmations we have noted already. First, the Bible reveals that we are "brought forth in iniquity,"(1) and thus bear the stain of original sin from the moment of our conception. Thus, we face squarely the sin problem. Second, we acknowledge that God is absolutely sovereign in salvation. We do not deserve salvation, and can do nothing to earn our salvation, and thus it is all of grace. Further we understand that our salvation is established by God’s election of sinners to salvation through Christ. Third, we affirm that Scripture teaches that Jesus Christ is the sole and sufficient Savior, and that salvation comes only on the basis of His blood atonement. Fourth, we affirm that the Bible teaches a dual eternal destiny – the redeemed to Heaven, the unredeemed to Hell.

    What, then is our basis for claiming that all those who die in infancy are among the elect? First, the Bible teaches that we are to be judged on the basis of our deeds committed "in the body."(2) That is, we will face the judgment seat of Christ and be judged, not on the basis of original sin, but for our sins committed during our own lifetimes. Each will answer "according to what he has done,"(3) and not for the sin of Adam. The imputation of Adam’s sin and guilt explains our inability to respond to God without regeneration, but the Bible does not teach that we will answer for Adam’s sin. We will answer for our own. But what about infants? Have those who die in infancy committed such sins in the body? We believe not.

    One biblical text is particularly helpful at this point. After the children of Israel rebelled against God in the wilderness, God sentenced that generation to die in the wilderness after forty years of wandering. "Not one of these men, this evil generation, shall see the good land which I swore to give your fathers."(4) But this was not all. God specifically exempted young children and infants from this sentence, and even explained why He did so: "Moreover, your little ones who you said would become prey, and your sons, who this day have no knowledge of good and evil, shall enter there, and I will give it to them and they shall possess it."(5)The key issue here is that God specifically exempted from the judgment those who "have no knowledge of good or evil" because of their age. These "little ones" would inherit the Promised Land, and would not be judged on the basis of their fathers’ sins.

    We believe that this passage bears directly on the issue of infant salvation, and that the accomplished work of Christ has removed the stain of original sin from those who die in infancy. Knowing neither good nor evil, these young children are incapable of committing sins in the body – are not yet moral agents – and die secure in the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    Continued in following post.
     
  17. OldRegular

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    Continued from previous post.

    John Newton, the great minister who wrote the hymn Amazing Grace was certain of this truth. He wrote to close friends who had lost a young child:"I hope you are both well reconciled to the death of your child. I cannot be sorry for the death of infants. How many storms do they escape! Nor can I doubt, in my private judgment, that they are included in the election of grace."(6) The great Princeton theologians Charles Hodge and B. B. Warfield held the same position.

    One of the most eloquent and powerful expressions of this understanding of infant salvation came from the heart of Charles Spurgeon. Preaching to his own congregation, Spurgeon consoled grieving parents: "Now, let every mother and father here present know assuredly that it is well with the child, if God hath taken it away from you in its infant days."(7)Spurgeon turned this conviction into an evangelistic call. "Many of you are parents who have children in heaven. Is it not a desirable thing that you should go there, too? He continued: "Mother, unconverted mother, from the battlements of heaven your child beckons you to Paradise. Father, ungodly, impenitent father, the little eyes that once looked joyously on you, look down upon you now, and the lips which scarcely learned to call you father, ere they were sealed by the silence of death, may be heard as with a still small voice, saying to you this morning, ‘Father, must we be forever divided by the great gulf which no man can pass?’ Doth not nature itself put a sort of longing in your soul that you may be bound in the bundle of life with your own children?"

    Jesus instructed his disciples that they should "Permit the children to come to Me; do not hinder them; for the Kingdom of God belongs to such as these."(8) We believe that our Lord graciously and freely received all those who die in infancy – not on the basis of their innocence or worthiness – but by his grace, made theirs through the atonement He purchased on the cross.

    When we look into the grave of one of these little ones, we do not place our hope and trust in the false promises of an unbiblical theology, in the instability of sentimentalism, in the cold analysis of human logic, nor in the cowardly refuge of ambiguity.

    We place our faith in Christ, and trust Him to be faithful to his Word. We claim the promises of the Scriptures and the assurance of the grace of our Lord. We know that heaven will be filled with those who never grew to maturity on earth, but in heaven will greet us completed in Christ. Let us resolve by grace to meet them there.

    Endnotes:
    Psalm 51:5. All biblical citations are from the New American Standard Bible .
    2 Corinthians 5:10
    Ibid.
    Deuteronomy 1:35
    Deuteronomy 1:39
    John Newton, "Letter IX," The Works of John Newton (London, 1820), p. 182.
    Charles H. Spurgeon, "Infant Salvation" A sermon preached September 29, 1861. Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit (London, 1861), p. 505.
    Mark 10:14

    R. Albert Mohler, Jr. is President and Professor of Christian Theology.
    Daniel L. Akin is Vice President for Academic Administration, Dean of the School of Theology, and Associate Professor of Christian Theology.

    © R. Albert Mohler, Jr. - All Rights Reserved

    Fidelitas may be reproduced in whole or in part, but must include the attribution statement printed above. For further information, contact the Office of the President, The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, 2825 Lexington Road, Louisville, KY 40280. Phone 502.897.4121, Fax 502.899.1770. Or, contact by e-mail at [email protected]
     
  18. OldRegular

    OldRegular
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    I will ask you the same question I ask Amy. Can you really explain why you believed?
     
  19. Amy.G

    Amy.G
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    The Bible says one does not believe because they love their sin too much. It is a matter of pride and rebellion. Why is one child rebellious and the other compliant, both born of the same parents?

    Are you saying there is a basis for God's choosing? If so, I agree. The basis is clearly taught in scripture. Those chosen to salvation are the "whosoevers" that put their trust in Christ. That is what the Bible means when it says "chosen in Him".

    I do not claim to know all of God's thoughts, that's why I go to scripture to know Him better.

    I meant that God either elects based on "something" or He elects randomly.
     
  20. Jeep Dragon

    Jeep Dragon
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    Also explain how your belief was a "choice."
     

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