The basis of God's choice

I think maybe some of the confusion here might be the way you're looking at faith.

We do not have a blind faith. We are presented with lots and lost of evidence for the existence of God, the life, death and resurrection of Christ, so that we are without excuse. The Bible teaches that all men have received God's revelation of Himself through the things He has made. (Rom. 1) That is clear, physical evidence. Christ proved this point when He accused the Jews of unbelief even though He had performed many miracles right before their eyes. Those miracles were physical evidence that He was who He said He was. We also have the scriptures. They are an amazing testimony to truth of God, more physical evidence. On top of all that, we have the Spiritual guidance of the Holy Spirit, convicting and drawing us to God.
So our faith is not blind, but is based on the enormous evidence that God Himself has given us.

However, we can "choose" to ignore the evidence and resist the drawing of the Holy Spirit. Or we can choose to submit to Him.

Romans 1 explains this very well.

 

Amy,

It's not "random." I'll admit it may seem so to us. But we believe that God elects according to His own good pleasure.

Has He told us why? No. Is it random? No. Nothing in God's universe is random--not even one atom or molecule.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

I agree. So in your opinion what is the basis on which God elects one for salvation? I already know what the basis is.

 

God elects on (or according to) His own good pleasure. The basis of His election is His own will.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

That is not an answer. God takes no pleasure in the destruction of the wicked. So if He "passes over" some, it is not because it brings Him pleasure. So why does He pass over some? You can't say it's according to His good pleasure.

 

Now explain exactly why you believed.

No I am not saying anything about how or why God chose some to salvation in Jesus Christ and passed over others. How can mortal man have the mind of God. Now again, explain exactly why you believed?

Perhaps you know, I have no idea since I do not have the mind of God!

 

That still does not explain exactly why you believed.

 

I'm not going to say that I believed because God "infused" me with faith.

Why did you believe?

 

Old Regular, you have often answered my posts with comments from commentaries. The problems with commentaries is that most are written with bias. A commentary written by a Calvinist will reflect Calvinist views, a commentary written by a Catholic will reflect Catholic views. This is a problem, because if you only expose yourself to commentaries written by those of like belief as yourself, you will be convinced your doctrine is sound. Now this may be correct, or it could be total error. This is why the best source for answers is the sciptures themselves. The scriptures never contradict themselves.

Romans 5:12 does not say Adam's sin passed upon us, it says Adam's curse of death passed upon us. That is a huge difference. The scriptures say God never punishes a man for the sin of his parents, neither does God punish the parents for the sins of the child, a man is held accountable for his own sins.
So, you and I were not made sinners by Adam's sin, we are sinners because we sinned of our own volition when we were old enough to understand our actions. Little children are not mature enough to understand the penalty of sin, or even death. The mentally handicapped or those truly insane do not understand their actions and cannot be held responsible. Even unsaved man understands this concept.

So, it was not Adam's sin that passed upon us, it was Adam's curse or penalty.

I am not so sure that we are even born sinners. You become a sinner when you sin, just like Adam and Eve. I do believe we are born with the ability to sin. I know we are.

Ecc 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

Jesus did not call little children sinners, he said, "of such is the kingdom of heaven." I hardly think heaven is full of sinners.

Matt 19:14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

Now, I know Psalms 58:3 that says the wicked go astray as soon as they are born. But I do not believe a person is held accountable until they are old enough and mature enough to understand their actions.

Your commentary did get it right when it said God did not hold the children of the Jews brought up out of Egypt accountable for their parent's sin. But this just agrees with what I have said.

Num 14:29 Your carcases shall fall in this wilderness; and all that were numbered of you, according to your whole number, from twenty years old and upward, which have murmured against me,
30 Doubtless ye shall not come into the land, concerning which I sware to make you dwell therein, save Caleb the son of Jephunneh, and Joshua the son of Nun.
31 But your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, them will I bring in, and they shall know the land which ye have despised.
32 But as for you, your carcases, they shall fall in this wilderness.

God said all who murmured against him would perish in the wilderness. But all those less then twenty years old were not punished.

 

This argument is plain silly. Because we cannot explain why we believe, this proves Calvinism true? Hardly.

I know why I believe certain things, because I am convinced or persuaded by the truth or facts given. I can also be misled to believe falsely by false evidence and lies. We all can.

I had a girlfriend when I was young. She said she loved me, and I believed her at the time because she was very good to me. Later she went out with another fellow and broke my heart. I no longer believed what I had believed before.

This girl did not have supernatural powers. She did not cause me to believe her, her words and actions persuaded me. And later when she broke my heart her words and actions persuaded me otherwise. But she didn't cast a magic spell on me.

Well, maybe she did. :laugh:

 

I see what you are saying. The evidence is there. The drawing is there. One can choose to submit to something or resist a drawing.

How does one "choose" to believe something? You can reword things into terms such as "accept," "resist," "submit," or "ignore" which are OK terms, but I want to know how the moment of belief in something occurs by some kind of momentary CHOICE.

If I see a fork in the road and I currently do not believe that one direction is more important than another, I may flip a coin to choose which road to take.

If I believe that one road is better than the other, but not sure, I will most likely either ask someone to explain it further or take the one I believe is the best.

If my faith in one road is not strong enough, someone may come along and explain why one road is better than the other. Whatever he says combined with what I currently believe or do not know may or may not change what I currently believe. If I strongly believe one road is better than the other, he will not be able to change my belief.

Based on what I believe will determine a stronger desire to choose an action such as walking down one of the roads.

Like you said, there is no such thing as blind faith. That is true. There is such thing as blind obedience that some people do with their leader because they believethat they are supposed to follow their leader blindly.

There is lots of evidence of God through His creation like you said. Why do some people believe and others do not? Does their believe change spontaneously by choice or do they have encounters with evidence, encounters, philosophers, revelations, or preachers that bring about a moment where they realize the truth? Once they realize the truth, don't they believe it if they know it is true because they are suddenly convinced that it is true?

I think that sometimes we rely on outward actions to prove to use that someone believed the Gospel. We engineer the invitation to make people think that they have to walk an isle and pray a prayer to "accept Jesus into one's heart." Some people are nervous about walking down an isle publicly, saying some kind of prayer, or admitting to some kind of authority figure that they are willing to accept something if they are not sure what all it entails. Nevertheless, some of these shy people heard the Gospel during the sermon and believed it. They did not make some kind of magic choice in their psyche to believe it, it made sense and clicked into their psyche. However, the shy or nervous people may have chosen not to walk the isle, pray the prayer, or admit to accepting something because they are shy, nervous, or not sure what they are getting themselves into.

I still do not know how one chooses to believe something. One can hear the truth, fight the truth, try to resist the truth, or pretend not to believe or want it because the truth may hurt some people.

Actions are determined by choices.
Choices are made freely, but are based on what one currently believes at the moment the choice it made.

 

Winman

The only quotations I have used to respond to you came from A Manual of Theology by John Dagg, a 19th century Southern Baptist and the quotation above from an article by Albert Mohler. Dagg's book is not a commentary as you can see from the title. Dagg was a believer in the Sovereign Grace of God in Salvation as were most Southern Baptists of that time. Mohler is also a believer in the Sovereign Grace of God in Salvation.

You say:

Romans 5:12, KJV
12. Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

It says that Adam's sin was passed to us: for that all have sinned:

This is perhaps more clear from a modern translation.

Romans 5:12, NASB
12. Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--

Looking a little further we see:

Romans 5:18, 19, NASB
18. So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
19. For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.

Romans 5:12, NKJV
12. Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned--

 

I asked you first AmyG and you are trying to avoid the answer.

I have no problem telling you why I believed. I will say first that I have believed as far back as I can remember in God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit because I was taught this and I believed it without doubt. However, That being said I knew that I was not saved, I was lost.

But one day when I was 34 years old something changed. I now believe that change was the work of the Holy Spirit who regenerated, new birthed, my soul, which was dead in sin, and gave me the faith by which I believed that Jesus Christ had granted me salvation.

Now it is your turn.

 

who can know the mind of God, no matter which side of the calvinist issue you fall, you can no know the mind of God, we as humans are not capable of fully understanding an infanite God.
You answer your own question and fully explain your answer.

 

We do this everyday. If your child says "dad I didn't do it", you are faced with a choice to believe him or not.

Even as a Christian, I am faced everyday with a choice to believe God or not. When things are going badly in my life, sometimes I feel like God has abandoned me. Then I read these words in my bible: And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose. (Rom. 8:28).
Now, I am faced with a choice. Do I believe these words or not? I choose to believe them.

 

I don't claim to know the mind of God, but He has revealed Himself in the scriptures, and what He has revealed, I can know.


Someone else made the statement that God does not choose randomly. (read the OP). I agree with that. So, there must be a reason God choose one for salvation. Calvinists will claim that we can't know the reason because we can't know the mind of God. Yet the Bible is clear on what that reason is. God chooses those who put their trust in Christ. We are chosen "in Him". Not apart from Him. In the Calvinist doctrine, you are chosen before you have faith, or before you are "in Him". That is unbiblical, but Calvinists will not admit it because it would destroy their theology of regeneration before faith.

 

My experience was very similar to yours. I wasn't taught anything in my home as a child, yet I always knew there was a God. I saw evidence of Him in creation. I saw Him in the lives of others. Yet, I wasn't saved until I was 22. At that time, there were sins in my life that I could not live with anymore. I believe God was convicting me through His Spirit of my sins. I felt a heavy weight on my heart and knew the only way out was to turn to God. I did not do this on my own. Yet God did not infuse a special faith into me to believe. He drew me and convicted me and I responded of my own free will. That is why today I can say that I love Him. Love comes from free will or else it does not exist.

 

That is not what is says at all. It says that by Adam sin entered the world. It does not say that Adam's sin passed upon us. That is a huge difference and people often read into the verse what it does not really say. It says sin entered the world by Adam, and the curse of death entered by sin. Then it says death passed upon all men because all men have sinned. It does not say Adam's sin passed upon us, it says we die for our own sin. God never punishes the child for the sin of the parent, or vice versa.

Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

So, this teaching that Adam's sin passed on us is not scriptural, God says the son shall not bear the iniquity of his father, nor shall the father bear the iniquities of his son. This is a false teaching.

Now, why don't the scriptures say that by Eve sin entered the world? After all, she ate first. The scriptures say Eve was deceived. But importantly, they say Adam was not deceived.

1 Tim 4:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

Now, these are very interesting verses of scripture that I am sure could be debated forever, but Eve was not held accountable for her sin. She did not eat in knowing disobedience, she was deceived. But Adam was not deceived by Satan's lie and knowingly ate of the forbidden fruit.

So, this shows that a person must be of an age or maturity of accountability to be guilty of sin.

But that's another subject.

The truth is, we do not know that Adam and Eve were created in sinless perfection. Yes, man was created in God's image, but that does not mean we have all the qualities and attributes of God, but we do share many of his attributes. Adam and Eve very well may have had the ability to sin from the beginning. If man was unable to sin, then why would God have to give him a commandment not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and warn him of the punishment? If man could not sin as God cannot, man would never have eaten of this tree. So, I do not believe man ever had sinless perfection and holiness as God does. Then we would be equal with God. The fact that they ate the forbidden fruit proves they had the ability to sin from the beginning.

And the death spoken of was not physical, it was spiritual. Adam did not fall dead the very day he ate the fruit, he lived 930 years. But their moral condition was altered, now they knew both good and evil.

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

And this is another area where I think Calvinism errs. Man knows good, the scriptures say so. It is a little far-fetched to believe that man can know what true good is, yet is not able to perform it.

The scriptures do not say that man has no righteousness, it says all his righteousnesses are as filthy rags. When the scriptures say no man is righteous, this is speaking of 100% sinless perfection. Righteousness is often compared to a garment in scripture. Man is not naked, he is clothed, but sin has torn and made filthy this garment of righteousness. This is not my point of view, I can show you this from scripture.

Eze 33:13 When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.

This verse speaks of righteous men. And it says if they trust in their own righteousness and commit iniquity, then "all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered". Now that is important, it shows that man can perform acts of righteousness.

So, the scriptures do not teach that man can perform no righteous acts as so many teach. Man knows good, man can perform good, but when man sins (and we all do) we come under the penalty of death which Adam introduced into the world through sin.

And not being able to explain how we believe does not prove the doctrines of Calvinism true. There are many abilities man has that are difficult to explain. For instance, who can explain the imagination? I have an imagination, and I had it before I was saved. I used to dream I was playing for the New York Yankees and would hit a grand slam home run when my team was down three runs in the bottom of the ninth with two strikes to win the World Series. I can still remember that.

How can you explain embarrassment? When a lady walks into a party to see another lady with the exact same dress on, why is she embarrassed? Why does she blush?

Do you have to be regenerated by the Holy Spirit to have an imagination, or to be embarrassed? No. But we all have these abilities and many more that cannot be explained.

How does memory work? Oh, I know scientists think they can explain memory, and they do understand it to a degree. But no one fully understands it or can explain it, yet we all have this abilitiy and do not need to be regenerated by the Holy Spirit to have these abilities.

So, it may seem like a clever argument to say that faith can only come from God, but it is a false argument and is easily disproven.

Now that said, all abilities we have are a gift from God. But unsaved man has the ability to excercise faith and does so everyday along with many other abilities that cannot be explained.

 

From what I read of your experience I would say that this is a classic example of God saving His "Chosen Ones". God after regenerating you, showing you that you had sinned against him, gave you the desire to turn to Him and "infused" you with faith to respond to Him. You might want to read the remarks of John Dagg that I posted concerning regeneration. They remarkably mirror your experience.

AmyG,
You choose to believe that you responded of your own free will. There was a time when I believed as you do. If you check my post I said that:

In time I came to realize that my salvation was entirely the work of God. He regenerated me and gave me the faith to respond to the Gospel.

I disagree with you and am happy to discuss our disagreement. But frankly I will not try to convince you to believe as I do. Debate would have never changed my view.

 

Amy said:

Amy is exactly right. True love must come from free will, it can not be forced, it cannot be imposed upon someone supernaturally.

I certainly would not want someone to love me because I imposed love upon them. I didn't slip my wife a dose of Love Potion #9 as the old song goes.

And God is no different, he desires true love that comes from the heart of the believer through their own free will.

Deut 13:1 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,
2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;
3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

The Lord here speaks of false prophets who might arise, whose predictions or miracles may come true, and may try to lead the people away from the Lord. The Lord says this will be a test, to prove whether they truly love him with all their heart and soul.

Now, if God imposes faith and love on a man, how could he possibly be tested? Calvinist's teach that God's grace is Irresisitable, under no circumstance could they fall away from God. Therefore any test like this would be absolutely meaningless and prove nothing.

No, you have to love God of your own free will, and that is what God desires.

It is a little ridiculous to have to explain this to Calvinists, they fully understand this themselves but will not admit to it.