The battle for Lordship salvation

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by evangelist6589, Oct 25, 2015.

  1. evangelist6589

    evangelist6589
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    At revival meetings at church. The evangelist is very gifted and I appreciate how he speaks on hell. However prior to each invitation he has yet to speak on repentance and submission to the lordship of Christ or of fruits. It seems people are led to recite certain facts of the gospel in a prayer and then are told they are believers after a prayer.

    I am trying to give a gospel tract that emphasizes repentance and lordship salvation to the new converts.

    Some good ones by John MacArthur, John Piper, Ray Comfort, and Mike Gendrin.

    Pray for the new converts that they will be legit and will not struggle in sin as I did after I came to faith in such a church that blanks out lordship salvation.
     
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  2. Deacon

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    What a heavy burden you place on those that simply desire to turn from their ways and believe in their Savor.

    The fruits of salvation do not occur until after one is planted.
    One does not grow in grace until grace has been grasped.

    Rob
     
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  3. TCassidy

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    Repentance, submission to the lordship of Christ, and the bearing of fruit is the result of regeneration, not the cause of it. Rolleyes
     
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  4. InTheLight

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    How does this work in Calvinism, exactly?

    "Dear God, I pray that these people that profess faith in you really were saved by you, and you aren't just messing with us?" What?

    Did God effectively call these people, or not?

    How can we pray for something that has been decided from before the foundation of the world?
     
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  5. TCassidy

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    Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
     
  6. Yeshua1

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    [Are we called to preach jesus has died for sinners, and that they can receive receive his free gift of salvation thru faith in him and his work alone, or that they also need to have all known sin areas corrected and submiteed unto jesus before getting

    Justification is indeed just as simple as saved thru grace alobe, received by faith alone, but then we have the life long sauctification process, the "Lordship" process!
     
  7. evangelist6589

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    Yes but when a preacher avoids using the word repentance and submission it can be a flag. Whenever I open air preach I always mention repentance and submission to lordship.
     
  8. TCassidy

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    As a prerequisite for salvation or the result of it?

    The problem today is that many Christians don't know what the gospel is. The gospel is NOT repent, believe, and submit to Christ's Lordship, pray this prayer, walk the aisle, make a commitment.

    The gospel is very clear in 1 Corinthians 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
    2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
    3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
    4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures.

    All the rest is the result of the gospel.

    If you preach anything else you are adding to the gospel.
     
    #8 TCassidy, Oct 26, 2015
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2015
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  9. robustheologian

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    I've always stood on the fence regarding Lordship salvation only because Scripture makes it clear that we receive eternal life and are sealed with the Holy Spirit the moment we believe. However, you can't deny (like TCassidy said) that submission is a result of salvation.

    Regeneration leads to repentance.
    Repentance leads to justification.
    Justification leads to sanctification.
     
  10. TCassidy

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    I agree. We, being people of logic, try to get everything all lined up in an orderly way (just look at the arguments regarding the ordo salutis, infra and supra lapsarianism, etc).

    And due to our minds being limited by time, sequence, and duration, we must arrange these things in sequence in order for our need for logic to be satisfied.

    However, from an Eternal viewpoint (as God sees it), they are simultaneous. It is only our limited ability to comprehend that forces us to find a logical sequence that will satisfy our need for order. :)
     
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  11. robustheologian

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    Exactly. What I mentioned were logically consequential and not necessarily temporally sequential. For some reason though, a lot of people fall into that trap.
     
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  12. Deacon

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    It took me awhile to find this...
    Having only recently read Calvin's Institutes, the discussion reminded of a quote I had highlighted.

    Rob
     
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  13. evangelist6589

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    The result of salvation
     
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  14. Martin Marprelate

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    Amen! But I'm sure you will agree with me that repentance and so forth are not necessarily the result of reading a tract or saying a 'sinner's prayer.'

    I think we need to remember though that the very first recorded word of our Lord's public ministry was "Repent!" (Matt. 4:17). In avoiding the Scylla of Legalism, we also need to navigate the Charybdis of Sandemanianism.

    True Biblical faith, the faith that saves, is not believing that there really was someone called Jesus of Nazareth who lived a long time ago and did a lot of good stuff. True saving faith is seeing yourself as a poor lost sinner, realising that God would be perfectly fair in sending you to hell, turning away from your sins and laying hold of the Lord Jesus Christ and His blood shed upon the cross for salvation.

    A man once asked the Lord Jesus, "What shall I do to inherit eternal life?" Luke 10:25). Another man asked the Apostle Paul a similar question: "What must I do to be saved?" (Acts 16:30). These men received very different answers. Why do people here think that was?
     
  15. Revmitchell

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    Submission is when we actually act on our belief or understanding.

    Repentance is the understanding that we need to make a change and have the intent in our heart.

    Sanctification is when we put into practice as a lifestyle, that which God says we are to do.

    We must be careful not to conflate these things.
     
  16. revmwc

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    What must we do to be saved?

    "Acts 16:
    29 Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,
    30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
    31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house."

    Doesn't say he must repent of His sin it says to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

    Let see what Peter said in "Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved."

    Still nothing about repentance.

    "Ephesians 2:
    8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
    9 Not of works, lest any man should boast."

    Saved by Grace through Faith again no repentance is mentioned for sin.

    Let see exactly what Jesus stated:

    "John 3:
    16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
    17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
    18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

    Again and again it is a matter of belief on the Lord Jesus Christ. Who after faith is the Lord of our life not before. Notice the Lord Jesus Christ didn't say , "speak on repentance and submission to the lordship of Christ or of fruits." He stated one must believe on the Son and is not condemned.

    Now John the Baptist in preaching of the coming of hte Messiah said this to the religious leaders:
    "Matthew 3:
    7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
    8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
    9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham."

    what were they to repent of? There false belief that is stating "We have Abraham to our father" their faith was in religion not in the Savior. they were to repent of their unbelief and therefore the fruit of repentance they would bring was confession in the Savior who was coming.

    We see Jesus speak of Repentance in:
    "Mark 1:
    14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
    15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel."

    what were they to repent of, well He made it clear " believe the gospel" repent of their unbelief.

    "Luke 5:
    31 And Jesus answering said unto them, They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick.
    32 I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."

    Again what must they do to be saved, Believe on the Lord Jesus in other words repent of their unbelief.

    Almost everyone Jesus spoke too in those days were Jews. Each of them practiced the Jewish religion. They offered sacrifices even the atonement sacrifice. They placed their hands on the sacpegoat which had the blood on its head and was led into the wilderness. Yet He said repent they had every time they offered sacrifice they had confessed their sins and practiced their religious deeds. Yet to those religious leaders and those in that religion Jesus, Peter and John the Baptist all said repent but repent of what? Their belief which was "We have Abraham to our father" no they needed to place their faith in the Savior who was coming just as we need to place our Faith in the one who has come that is The Lord Jesus Christ. Those who believe are not condemned Jesus said, he said nothing about "repentance and submission to the lordship of Christ or of fruits" those are taught after salvation not as part of it. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and though shalt be saved. then begin a life of repentance and following Him as you grow into maturity.
     
    #16 revmwc, Oct 27, 2015
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2015
  17. Martin Marprelate

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    Remarkable! May I invite you to consider Isaiah 1:12-17 and Amos 5:21-24? Maybe you will find the answer to your question there.

    I also notice that you didn't mention Luke 10:25. I shall be interested to know what you think is the reason to the difference in our Lord's reply to the scribe and Paul's reply to the jailor.
     
  18. revmwc

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    Isaiah and Amos back up exactly what I stated they were to repent that is turn away from their belief in offering sacrifices for salvation, those meant nothing to them except being a religious practice. That is what they had in saying "We have Abraham to our father" they had the sacrifices in which they had their faith, their faith was not in the Savior who was to come and had actually come in one Jesus Christ.

    "Luke 10:
    25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
    26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
    27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
    28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.
    29 But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?"

    He came to tempt Christ and Christ point was that based on that man's faith to inherit eternal life he believed that Moses and the Law were the requirement. He was tempting the Savior in whom He needed to believe. After the parable of the good Samaritan he Told the man to go and do the same in other words the lawyer was failing in his attempt to be saved through the law because he violated one point, he didn't love his neighbor as he loved himself. His dependence was upon works. Christ showed the lawyer you cannot get to heaven you cannot inherit eternal life by works therefore it can only be by Faith. In all these they needed to repent that turn from their belief in religious practices and having "Abraham to our father" for salvation and believe on Christ as their Lord and Savior.
     
  19. Martin Marprelate

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    Even more remarkable. In fact, almost unbelievable. You have eviscerated those two texts in order to fit them into your erroneous theological grid.

    Isaiah 1:15-17. 'Your hands are full of blood. wash yourselves, make yourselves clean; put away the evil of your doings from before My eyes. Cease to do evil. learn to do good; seek justice, rebuke the oppressor; defend the fatherless, plead for the widow.'

    Amos 5:24. 'But let righteousness run down like water, and righteousness like a mighty stream.'

    What these people were doing was professing faith in God without repentance and complying with His outward requirements while still carrying on with their idolatry and wickedness. Let's try another prophet: 'Will you steal, murder, commit adultery, swear falsely, burn incense to Baal.........and then come and stand before Me in this house which is called by My name, and say, "We are delivered to do all these abominations?"' And the answer of course is "yes! Because Revmwc said it would be alright!" '"Has My house, which is called by My name, become a den of thieves in your eyes? Behold I, even I, have seen it," declares the LORD' (Jer. 7:9-11). And again, 'They have also healed the wound of My people slightly, saying, "Peace, peace!" when there is no peace' (6:14).

    Some of the stuff in your posts is simply incredible:
    8 'Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
    9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father.'

    'Fruits meet for repentance' is a changed life. And they weren't to think that because they were Jews they were excused that. So, what does a changed life look like? 'So the people asked him, saying, "What shall we do then?" He answered and said to them, "He who has two tunics, let him give to him who has none; and he who has food let him do likewise. Then the tax collectors also came to be baptized, and said to him, "Teacher, what shall we do?" And he said to them, "Collect no more than what is appointed for you." Likewise the soldiers asked him, saying, "And what shall we do?" So he said to them, "Do not intimidate anyone or falsely accuse, and be content with your wages." ' (Luke 3:10-14). Does he say, "Repent of your unbelief"? No he doesn't.

    Now we don't do these things in order to be saved- we do them because we are saved. These people were coming to John for baptism, and therefore, led by the Holy Spirit, they should have repented and trusted in the coming Messiah. John doesn't quiz them about the Messiah or their faith, but he does quiz them about repentance. A profession of faith is worse than useless unless it is accompanied by true repentance.

    Repentance and faith are two sides of the same coin. Faith without repentance can no more save than repentance without faith. Our faith must be a repentant faith, just as our repentance must point us to the Saviour.



     
  20. revmwc

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    So from what I see from you one must first show works before they can gain salvation. Is that what you see Lordship Salvation as? If that is what you are conveying then

    "Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;'

    would show Paul to be wrong. There can be no works that bring one to salvation.

    Then we have "1 Peter 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed."

    We are healed that is healed from sins penalty by the stripes of Christ, not by any pre-salvation works or fruit produced.

    "James 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God."

    Abraham's faith as well as all O.T. believers were saved by Faith and had Righteousness created to their account, not by their works but by their Faith in the Savior who was coming. The Sacrifices never saved them, the sacrifices were a shadow or a symbol of their Faith.

    Christ is the Lord of every Believers life because the Holy Spirit indwells them at Salvation. No works are good works until they are accomplished by the Holy Spirits guidance of the Believer. He brings conviction upon the unbeliever to come to Christ.




    "1 Timothy 1:
    11 But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.
    12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses."

    It appears everything done after salvation is done by our efforts to flee from sin, we are to make a profession before many witnesses. Gee again nothing done in God's name prior to Faith does man any good. No works of Righteousness that is that which is right in God's sight.

    Woks done in Christ name before salvation are of no intrinsic value and we see what will happen to those who do things in His name apart from Faith, Faith must precede any works
    Christ said:
    "Matthew 7:
    22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
    23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
    24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:"

    These are those who believe works can save them and they are without faith, yet they produced fruit worthy of showing true repentance and yet Christ never knew them because they never truly believed on Him that is believed that He was the Savior and that all that He accomplished on the Cross was done for their salvation.
     

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