The Beast Revelation

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by ephraim, Jul 11, 2011.

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What scenario do you believe in?

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  1. ephraim

    ephraim
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    The Beast Revelation
    This letter is dedicated to all Christians.

    The following letter is a summary of Revelation 13. Its purpose is to show the method used in finding the conclusions which have been stated. Nothing new has been added from my previous letters. It is more of a compilation of them all. This writing is the same material in different words. The Bible uses this same method of explanation. There are four Gospels. In each you see a different view of the same material. This can be beneficial because the meaning becomes more exact. Although, if this is a first time reader, then this will all be news to you. With that in mind, here we go.

    The first thing that should be addressed when doing any study of Bible prophecy is what questions do I intend to answer. Some of these questions can seem a little simplistic, but their answers are much more complicated. In my studies there were only a few questions that I saw as needing an answer. My questions were very simple. First, who is this individual who is identified by the number 666? Second, who is the false prophet and how does he make the whole world worship the beast whose number is 666. Another question has to do with these same individuals. Could these two individuals be the same person, or for that matter Satan himself? Where is Satan during all this? That last question is very important. It actually goes straight to the answer of all the questions. Finally, when would someone expect to see these individuals on the Earth? Literally, what time frame should I see them? Those are the questions. The answers are much more involved.


    This narrative will attempt to show how the answers are figured out. These answers can be seen from events that happen in the nightly news. This leads me to a key, which most of us know, but most of us forget. The Bible is a history book. Some events have happened, while some are waiting to happen. It is the ones that have not happened that we are most concerned with. Here is another key. By the way, these keys I speak of are keys to understanding. The Lord spoke in parables. The reason he gave was that it was for some to know the mysteries of God, while it was for some to know not. In hearing, they do not hear. In seeing, they do not see. I compare it to telling the truth, while hiding it at the same time. Many of the parables that the Lord spoke he immediately gave an answer to. He showed how he used certain symbols and words to describe subjects and then gave their meanings. Now for the punch line. The Lord also spoke in parables that he did not identify. These parables go straight to the hidden meaning of these end times. Another key is word substitution. An example of this is a pretty well-known item from Revelation. This word substitution deals with Revelation 13:1. The beast has seven heads and ten horns. In Revelation 17 those heads and horns are defined. The heads are identified as mountains, while the horns are identified as kings. This changes the whole picture of what the beast is symbolically to what it is literally. Now Rev.13:1 can be read as follows with just the items discussed thus far. And I saw a beast rise up out of the sea having seven mountains and ten kings. That is a simple and easy word substitution. Know that this will happen many times throughout the Bible.


    Now, getting back to the questions. The question is, where is Satan? If this question can be answered, you will have eliminated some others. Some prophecy teachers believe that Satan is the beast, or that Satan is the false prophet, which is misleading and puts a stumbling block square in the road to a proper interpretation. I almost always get this question. How can you know who the beast is when he cannot be revealed? 2nd Thess. Chapter 2 states that he cannot be revealed, until something is removed first. Most scholars have this part right. That is a picture of the Rapture. What they have wrong is that Satan and the beast are not the same individual. Satan cannot be revealed until after the rapture, but he is not the beast. Therefore, I can identify the beast and his false prophet. People say prove it. So I did. I told them how to understand using the keys that I have mentioned. Revelation 13 is a parable, but God is not giving the definition, or the explanation. This one is for us to figure out. Ok, so where is Satan? In the book of Job, we get a view of Satan's abilities. In one scene, he is discussing with God about Job. Question, where is God? He is in heaven. Also, in his conversation with God Satan is talking as if he knows and has seen Job. God declares that he can do whatever he wants to Job, but he was not allowed to kill him. Now we know something else about Satan. He also has access to the Earth, and can affect peoples lives. So, it appears that Satan can be everywhere he wants to be, on Earth or in heaven. We know Satan and his angels will be cast out of heaven as per Revelation 12. This would further the idea that he is now in heaven. We also see Satan one other time, when he tempted Christ during his time on Earth. It says that he was taken to the wilderness to be tempted of Satan? Most people, and rightly so, have thought the wilderness to be a place on Earth, but this is a parable I believe. The Lord was in the wilderness and was tempted by Satan, but the wilderness is in heaven. This parable is read in Isaiah 35. It is the wilderness and the solitary place where the redeemed of the Lord walk. So, this last item being the most hard to prove, suffice it to say, that when Rev.12 says Satan will be cast out, he must be there in heaven to be cast out. Alright, now we can answer a couple questions. One, Satan is himself, and he is in heaven. Therefore, he is not the beast or the false prophet. These three work together, but each has his own identity.


    Now to dissect Revelation 13. As I have already stated, Revelation 13 is a word substitution parable. The seven heads are seven mountains and the ten horns are ten kings. Ok, we know from this description that the beast as described is a group of possibly ten countries. This brings me to another point. There are three definitions for the beast in Revelation 13. The first is a group of countries rising up out of the sea. The second is in Rev.13:11 and is a beast with two horns (kings). Remember horns are kings as per Rev. 17. Finally, there is a beast who is identified by the number 666. It is this last beast that causes all to recieve a mark and that no man can buy and sell save he who has the mark, his number, or his name. There are three items here. Nowhere does it say that the mark is the number 666. This might have been a good guess 20 yrs. ago , but it is pretty hard to believe. Imagine people running around with a mark of 666 on their right hands. It sounds like a cartoon, but this is what the prophecy teachers want you to believe. Ok, another problem that sounds like a cartoon is the interpretation of the word "all." They want you to believe that no man could buy or sell if they did not worship the beast and take his mark. Interpreting the word "all" to mean everyone in the world. This is not the case. For one, we know that the beast is made up of only possibly ten countries. Everyone in this world lives in roughly 190 countries. I don't think we could possibly mean everyone. How about, all of those people concerned with the mark. Also, how do you cause all people concerned to receive a mark, and why? The most obvious way to mark everyone is at the voting booth. All people, rich and poor, small and great, or free and bond are potential voters. So, Mahmoud Abbas was elected president of the Palestinian Authority, and in the process all voters received an indelible ink mark on their right hands. This mark was to prevent double voting and corruption in the election. Ok, we have a mark. It is not 666. At this point he fits the part, but not completely. Still, there is no ready identification of 666 concerning him. This election was in January 2005.



     
  2. ephraim

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    The Beast Revelation part two

    Back to Rev.13. We have seven mountains and ten kings. Prophecy teachers want us to believe that a city with seven mountains is the seat of the antichrist and he rules with ten nations. Their logical conclusion was the Europe Union and the Vatican. This started the revived Roman empire theory. This theory has been around since the reformation. It is hard to believe this charade has gone on so long. Teachers are still preaching the Revived Roman Empire. This theory had some validity before the twentieth century and now has to be eliminated. None of these teachers could have predicted the fall of the Ottoman Empire and its division into so many separate sovereign nations. Back to our word substitution. There is an interesting item here concerning the word mountains in scripture. The word mountains can have two meanings. It can be either a mountain range, or a nation. This is the hardest part of this whole exercise, trying to figure out what mountains are describing. Teachers will have you believe it is a city with seven mountains. In actual fact, mountains here are referring to nations. This also pertains to the head wound. The wound was not a literal head wound at all, but was a nation that was wounded. The beast's head or nation was wounded and was healed. This is the Palestinian Authority after the beginning of the Oslo Accords. The land that Israel possessed was now being given back to the Palestinians and the beast's nation is being healed. Ok, so now I have seven nations and ten kings, Rev.13:1. Why do I have three more kings than nations? It seems I have a king for each nation, but three left over. In Daniel in says the beast subdued three kings. These three kings don't necessarily have to be from different countries. It seems so, but is not expressly mentioned. It is another parable. The three kings who were subdued by the beast were Israeli Prime Ministers. These three Prime Ministers all served during the seven years of the Oslo Accords and were voted out of office because of terror perpetrated during Yasser Arafat's rule. Now, I am down to seven nations. These seven nations will wage war. I can easily see seven nations that will wage war here very soon; Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Egypt, Iran and the Palestinian Authority or Iraq, and there opponent Israel. This is exactly the same beast that is presented in Rev.17, just in a slightly different appearance. In Rev. 17, five nations attacked Israel and five fell, Israel was and the one that was, and the one that came later was the Palestinian Authority. That was a picture of Israel's war of Independence. Literally, this was the beast being born. The war in 1967 is the beast rising up out of the sea in Rev.13:1. It was the unresolved issues of this conflict that resulted in the Oslo Accords of 1993. This seven year peace treaty was confirmed by Yitzhak Rabin and Yasser Arafat.


    Now, there is another beast in Rev.13:11. This beast has two horns or kings. This is a picture of the Palestinian Authority after the elections of January 2006. This is when Hamas ran in the elections and won a majority in parliament. Now the P.A. was a country with two kings. Abbas was the President and Ismail Haniyeh was the Prime Minister. Here is where the problem with money came about. Western Nations did not want to donate money to a known terrorist organization so looked for a way they could still fund Abbas's P.A., but not let any money get to Hamas. This is when the number 666 identified an individual. The temporary international mechanism was adopted on June 16, 2006. This program allowed Western Nations to donate funds directly to Abbas, while bypassing Hamas. If you were a member of Fatah, or on Abbas's payroll you got paid. This is how the people were allowed to buy and sell. They received salaries, whereas before the mechanism, they had no way of getting paid from the Govenment. Hamas did not recieve salaries. Also, Hamas did not recieve the mark of the beast. They boycotted the elections for President in Jan. 2005.
    It is more obvious who is being talked about the closer you get to the end.


    In conclusion, to my three beast definitions. Mahmoud Abbas fits all three definitions. He was a member of the P.A. when it was formed. He took over from Yasser Arafat after his death. He was one of the two kings of the second beast in Rev.13:11. Lastly, he is the one identified by the number 666, which could have been Arafat had he lived.


    Now, concerning the the false prophet. The following four verses below all refer to the false prophet, Ismail Haniyeh.


    Rev.13:11- and I beheld another beast coming up out of the Earth, and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
    Rev.13:12- And he exercises all the power of the first beast before him, and causes the earth and them which dwell therein, to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
    Rev.13:13- "And he does great wonders, so that he makes fire come down from heaven on the Earth in the sight of men".
    Rev.13:15- And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast, should be killed.


    Hamas exercised all the power of the first beast (Abbas's P.A.) because they were now an equal partner in the Government. Also, the leader of Hamas caused them to worship or honor the first beast because Hamas would not honor the first beast. The first beast was the PA without Hamas as a member. The image of the beast is what the Government of Mahmoud Abbas represented. Verse 12 does not mention the image yet, we are just informed that the false prophet caused them to worship the first beast. Verse 14 and 15 gives the details of how that worshipping or honor was to commence. An image was created of the first beast that he (the false prophet) caused to be honored. This image of the beast is three items; the recognition of Israel, the honoring of all prior Palestinian agreements, and a renunciation of terror.

    The last question I think that needs addressed is how do you know the timing is right? Meaning, there have been so many translations, how do you know that this one is correct? This is a question I always get asked. The answer, in my mind, is sort of a mix between two different prophecies. The first is the seven day prophecy as recorded in Genesis. It is a similtude between this and the amount of recorded time that has already happened on Earth. In the book of Peter, God says one day to him is as a thousand years. If that idea is applied to the Genesis creation, everyday that God created something one thousand years passed. Finally, on the last day he rested from his work, and his rest was one thousand years or one of God's days. This was one full week or 7000 years. After God's rest he started his work again, and he created Adam. Starting with Adam, it was approximately 4000 years to the time of Christ. Also, we know that Christ was here roughly 2000 years ago. If God was to be consistant with his one week schedule, then we could expect his day of rest to fall somewhere after the year two thousand. 4000 plus 2000 is six days and on the seventh he rested for one thousand years. This is not an exact estimate, but it can put you in the right ballpark when searching for the correct timing of Revelation. This is the estimate. The next item is more exact. Daniel 9:27 says that he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week. Many in Hebrew is Rab. This was a covenant confirmed with Yitzhak Rabin. It was the beginning of land for peace, or the Oslo Accords. When you see this agreement happen you should be aware that this prophecy will last seven years. There is only one problem with this item. Prior to it happening, everyone thought that the end of the seventh year of the agreement God would return and begin his rest. Well, that did not happen. The reason was a logical misinterpretation. It just mentions that this agreement must occur along with the prophecies mentioned, not that they would all happen and end on the last day of the seventh year. This has thrown everyone watching offtrack for a time. Although, this was not such a terrible mistake if the watcher could see the right answer and get his, or her perspective back. When you have these two items coinciding at the expected time, then you know Revelation can be interpreted with accuracy. The events should start happening, as they have, as I have recorded in this letter.


    May God bless all who read this letter.


    Michae1
     
  3. ephraim

    ephraim
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    For those who are watching, the fun is just about to start.
    Michae1
     
  4. ephraim

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    Does anyone agree with my interpretation?
     
  5. billwald

    billwald
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    If Revelation was to strange for John Calvin to understand it is beyond my understanding. I gave up on Revelation and calculus decades ago.
     
  6. Yeshua1

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    believe that John was referring to nero caesar as the beast of that time, but that he also saw him as a type of the bigger beast, final Antichrist to still come!
     
  7. ephraim

    ephraim
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    So, do you think he is here now?
     
  8. BobRyan

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    In Rev 12 we have the 1260 years of the dark ages - also mentioned in Rev 11 and also mentioned in Dan 7 -- and again in Rev 13 we are reminded of that 1260 year period of time where the saints were persecuted.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  9. ephraim

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    Please vote in the poll. If you can, give a short answer as to why you feel the way you do. I think the results would be very interesting...
     
  10. BobRyan

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    have voted here: The key to understanding Rev 13 is understanding the 1260 days (day for a year) in Rev 11, 12, and 13, and Dan 7.

    Rev 12 shows that they refer to the dark ages that happen after Christ goes to heaven and Dan 7 points out that it happens after the fall of the pagan Roman empire that divides into 10 main kingdoms.

    Rev 13 tells us that the first beast of Rev 13 receives a "deadly wound" at the end of that 1260 year period of time.

    A number of sources admit that the 11th horn in Daniel 7 that arises from the ten divisions of pagan Rome - is the papacy that reigns during the dark ages.

    And others also admit that this is a 1260 year period of time.

    In my view it ends with the "Deadly wound" of 1798 when the Pope is taken captive by the French Army and the Vatican civil state is abolished.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  11. prophet

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    The Man of Sin will be revealed, and begin assention to the point where he rules the world with an iron fist for 31/2 years.
     
  12. DHK

    DHK
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    If you equate that to the Tribulation, you have not read or understood the Book of Revelation, particularly chapters 6 to 19.
     
  13. DHK

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    Your theology is a mess, to put it bluntly.
    The Tribulation is still future. To say that others have gone through the Tribulation while we have escaped is ridiculous on the one hand. It goes against the justice of God.
    OTOH, for God to rapture the justice and pour out his wrath on the ungodly is just, which is the purpose of the Tribulation, and that has not happened yet. The Tribulation is an act of God, not of man. You look through the eyes of history at the Tribulation as an act of man. Not so.
    You also disregard recent history. Though the atrocities were great during the Dark Ages they don't compare with what is happening today, which you seem to be ignorant of.

    For example:

    http://russellbrownworth.blogspot.ca/2014/01/the-judgment-of-babylon.html

    More Christians in this last century have been martyred than all other centuries combined! That is considerably more than the 1260 years you mention. And it is a horrible massacre; genocide in many cases.
    Just a couple of months ago some Islamic extremists told a 16 year old boy to recant Christianity and become a Muslim. He said that he would never deny Christ. They swiftly beheaded him with a sword right in front of his parents and to all standing by at a public tea stall. This was in Syria. But this is happening in Muslim nations all over the world. Just because you don't hear of it doesn't mean it is not happening.

    What else:
    In 1600 the population of the world was about 580 million total, and in 1800 it had not reached one billion yet. According to your calculations one out of every six people on the earth, including North America, Africa, South America, Australia, etc., would have had to die by the hands of the RCC at this time. Your numbers do not add up.

    In 1800 there was less than one billion.
    Now there is more than seven billion.

    More about the present persecution of Christians:
    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]http://www.worthynews.com/12696-brit-mps-debate-persecution-of-christians[/FONT]


    The Tribulation hasn't taken place. When it does I won't be here.

    When it comes it will be more terrible than anything history has ever seen.
    [FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
     
  14. BobRyan

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    As for understanding the 1260 days as 1260 years...

    Even Matthew Henry admits that the little horn - 11th horn of Daniel 7 is the Papacy and that this cannot be refuted.

    Quote:
    Dan 7 – 11th horn
    Matthew Henry – concise.

    Dan 7: 15-28 It is desirable to obtain the right and full sense of what we see and hear from God; and those that would know, must ask by faithful and fervent prayer. The angel told Daniel plainly. He especially desired to know respecting the little horn, which made war with the saints, and prevailed against them. Here is foretold the rage of papal Rome against true Christians. St. John, in his visions and prophecies, which point in the first place at Rome, has plain reference to these visions. Daniel had a joyful prospect of the prevalence of God's kingdom among men. This refers to the second coming of our blessed Lord, when the saints shall triumph in the complete fall of Satan's kingdom.
    Other sources also agree with the 1260 year application for Daniel 7

    Martin Luther – 1260 years starting from Emperor Phocase (602-610)

    John Cotton - (1639) 395 - 1655 as the 1260
    Increase Mather (1708) 456 AD to 1716 as the 1260
    Jonathan Edwards (1739) – 606-1866 as the 1260
    George Bell
    Edward King,
    William Cunninghame,
    Charles Maitland,
    Alexandar Keith,
    Edward Bickersteth
    Edward Irving,
    George Croly
    Matthew Habeshon
    Joseph Wolf
    Johann Petri (1769)
    Hans Wood of Ireland (1787)
    Isaac Newton
     
  15. BobRyan

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    You appear to suppose a Bible text saying "BEFORE the Great Tribulation of those days He will gather His elect from one end of heaven to the other".

    No such text.

    But there is one that reads the opposite to that.

    In Matt 24 this is when He "gathers his elect to Himself" from the four winds - the four corners of the earth.



    In Matt 24 we have

    20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.


    29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."


    So then for those who prefer an even more pointed reading ---


    Matt 24
    29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days ... He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

    Pre-trib does not survive this Bible detail.

    Just after Jesus predicted the 70AD destruction of Jerusalem in Matt 24 the disciples ask the question - 3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

    Now notice that "Christ's coming" is exactly what is described in Matt 24 and so also in John 14:1-4

    14 “Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. 4 And where I go you know, and the way you know.”


    Matt 24
    29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days ... He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

    Christ did not say "this is NOT the coming that you need to focus on because there will be another earlier coming where I will get you" -- as some have "much imagined".
     
  16. DHK

    DHK
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    Even Matthew Henry?
    I don't agree with any of those old commentaries on their eschatology. They were either post-mil or amil. Why do you bring them up at all.

    No current evangelical commentary will agree with you. And that is factual.
    Why are you quoting from the Dark Ages? Because you still live back there.
     
  17. DHK

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    You are confused. That text refers to the nation of Israel whom he will gather together at the end of the Tribulation.

    IThes.4:15-17 speaks of the rapture of the believers which is the first resurrection and will take place before the Tribulation ever happens. I will be part of that resurrection. I look forward to it.

    After that is a Great Tribulation of seven years described in great detail in Revelation 6 through 19. You need to study that and be able to explain it.
    You ignore context. The context is the Tribulation. The elect are the Jews.
    You have a problem with it because you believe the Tribulation has already taken place therefore this verse is meaningless to you.

    In Matt 24 we have
    20-22; 29-31
    So then for those who prefer an even more pointed reading ---

    Matt 24:29
    Pre-trib does not survive this Bible detail.[/quote]
    Yes it does, for the elect of that verse are the Jews. The believers do not enter the Tribulation. The Bible says plainly that "we are not appointed unto wrath."
    He never said "70 A.D."
    The signs of his coming never came to fruition.
    Therefore it is still future.
    This has nothing to do with eschatology and is totally irrelevant.
    Again the reference is to the Jews. You simply quote the same verse over and over again, as if that seems to make a difference in your debate tactics. It doesn't.
    Study 1Thes. 4:15-17. And then go to Acts 1.
    The angels told the disciples that they would see Jesus come again, "as they saw him go," that is ascend into heaven. That does not refer to the Second Coming when he will come in power and might. It refers to the rapture when he will descend slowly in the clouds to come for his bride.
     
  18. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1
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    paul and John saw the beast as the man of Sin, the future and final Antichrist, a personal man, one who mimics and mocks true CHrist/Messiah, NOT the papacy/RCC!
     
  19. BobRyan

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    John never mentions the term "man of sin" and Paul never mentions the term "antichrist".

    John says many antichrists have come.

    Paul has only one man of sin.

    No doubt however the two overlap - the man of sin in 2Thess 2 is certainly one of the antichrists John mentions.

    There are two beasts in Rev 13. One comes out of the sea and the other comes out of the land.

    AFTER the tribulation -- He gathers his elect according to Matt 24.

    That means that two beast problem in Rev 13 is something to be taken seriously and as noted earlier that 1260 year period that Rev 13 is the dark ages.

    But Rev 13 points out more tribulation that comes after that.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  20. Yeshua1

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    Antichrist are many, antichrist Spirit at work, but will one FINAL Antichrist, the little horn of daniel, the man of Sin of paul, that will oppose the saints, exault himself as God...

    beast in revelation is both a world system/kingdom/empire, and also headed up by a beast, and a false prophet, ALL of that future, yet to come, as NONR of that fulfilled in history as of yet!
     

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