The Beginning of the Day of the Lord

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by danrusdad, Jul 2, 2004.

  1. danrusdad

    danrusdad
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    For those of you who may have missed this in my "debate" with Ed...

    Scriptural Evidience that the 70th week, Great Tribulation, and the Day of the Lord are NOT equivalent:

    Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

    Point 1: The 70th week lasts for 7 years. And the abomination of desolation occurs at the midpoint (3 ½ years in).

    Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
    Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation , such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

    Point 2: According to Christ’s own words, the Great Tribulation will not begin until AFTER the AoD at the midpoint of the 70th week. This shows that the 70th week and the GT are NOT the same.
    Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

    Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

    Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal , and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
    Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come ; and who shall be able to stand?


    Point 3: Joel, Jesus, and John all agree: the Day of the Lord will be preceded by a specific sign in the sun, moon, and stars, signifying its arrival. According to Jesus, it’s AFTER the Great Tribulation; and according to John, it is at the breaking of the 6th seal.

    Conclusion:

    a) The 70th week will last for 7 years,
    b) The Great Tribulation will begin at the midpoint and will last an undetermined amount of time,
    c) The Day of the Lord will not begin until after the GT and after the triple sign is given in the heavens


    Therefore, the 70th week DOES NOT = the Great Tribulation DOES NOT = the Day of the Lord.

    The result is that seals are shown not to be part of the wrath of God, and the church, while promised rapture before wrath, is subject to all events leading up to the 6th seal. Further, if correct, it would be natural to expect Rev, in it's chronolgy, to allude to the rapture. And, in fact, it does in the very next chapter:

    Rev 7:9-17 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, [a perfect description of the church] stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation [deliverance, due to the rapture] to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen. And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation , and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

    questions or comments?
     
  2. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper
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    Malachi tells us about that day:

    Malachi 4
    5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the great and terrible day of Jehovah come.
    6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers; lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

    Malachi gives us the "when" of it all. Elijah will be sent before that day. So who/was that Elijah? None other than John the Baptist:

    Matt 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and men of violence take it by force.
    13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
    14 And if ye are willing to receive it, this is Elijah, that is to come.

    Matt 17:11 And he answered and said, Elijah indeed cometh, and shall restore all things:
    12 but I say into you, that Elijah is come already, and they knew him not, but did unto him whatsoever they would. Even so shall the Son of man also suffer of them.
    13 Then understood the disciples that he spake unto them of John the Baptist .

    Scripture tells us who the Elijah was. Clearly John the Baptist.

    Notice Mal 4:6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers ; lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

    John also fulfills this requirement,

    In speaking of the birth of John:

    Luke 1:16 And many of the children of Israel shall be turn unto the Lord their God.
    17 And he shall go before his face in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children , and the disobedient to walk in the wisdom of the just; to make ready for the Lord a people prepared for him.

    So this puts the Day of the Lord in the time of John the Baptist.

    Joel 2 contains a prophecy that will be fulfilled in the last days:

    Joel 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
    29 and also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my Spirit.
    30 And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth: blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
    31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of Jehovah cometh.

    This passage is quoted by Peter on the day of Pentecost as being fulfilled before their very eyes:

    Acts 2:15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose; seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
    16 but this is that which hath been spoken through the prophet Joel:
    17 And it shall be in the last days , saith God, I will pour forth of my Spirit upon all flesh: And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, And your young men shall see visions, And your old men shall dream dreams:
    18 Yea and on my servants and on my handmaidens in those days Will I pour forth of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy.
    19 And I will show wonders in the heaven above, And signs on the earth beneath; Blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke:
    20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the day of the Lord come, That great and notable day.
    21 And it shall be, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

    Just like Malachi these too were fulfilled in the 1st century.

    vs 17 see Acts 21:9-10; 27:17 and Acts 16:9; 27:23
    vs 21 beginning of the New Covenant

    These follow the pattern of OT apocalyptic judgement language. Not literal. Is. 13 describes the Judgement God was bringing on Babylon (vs.1) by the Medes(vs.17). Notice the language:

    Is 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light; the sun shall be darkened in its going forth, and the moon shall not cause its light to shine.

    Heavenly bodies are often used to symbolize nations, Kingdoms, peoples, and cities. See also Ez. 32:7-8, Amos 8:9, Nahum 1:5.

    So your Matthew and Revelation references speak to the fall of Jerusalem, the Jewish Age, and the judgement of those Jews. (Matt 23)

    As for the "when" of the Abomination of Desolation see Luke 21:20 and notice verse 22.
     

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