The Bible's Arminian Sequence for salvation

Again Bob,

You are not dealing honestly with the text. The text EXCLUDES any basis that God is founding anything ON what He knows. But who He has chose to love. The text BEGINS with His love. You can not add to the scripture. Your stuck. Endlessly gasping for prescient straws....

 

BROTHER BOB SAID:In John 1 Christ "IS THE LIGHT that comeing INTO The World ENLIGHTENS EVERYone of MANKIND"

Christ IS the Light. (The NEW thing IS THE LIGHT). Christ ENABLES All mankind to SEE truth and to choose to either accept or reject.

ME: If as you assert, Christ enables all mankind to see truth and to choose to either accept or reject it then why did Christ say to the phairisees,"45And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not... BECAUSE YE ARE NOT OF GOD" (John 8:45 and 47b) and "43Why do ye not understand my speech? EVEN BECAUSE YOU CANNOT HEAR MY WORD. (John 8:43)

Here our Lord clearly says that those who cant hear His word cannot hear because are "not of God" (i.e. born again.) Yet you are saying those who are not of God can hear his word? Why then does the scripture say, "the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness" (1 Cor 1:18a)?

Brother Joe

[ June 15, 2005, 05:46 PM: Message edited by: BrotherJoe ]

 

Brother Bob said: "The Calvinist scenario would be "Everyone that is GIVEN eternal life will then HEAR and then will BELIEVE".

They could ALSO have said it as "Everyone who hears and believes must first have HAD eternal life because only those WITH eternal life can hear".

All the nice little Calvinist texts -- are missing"


Brother Joe: Question 1) Brother Bob, who did Jesus say CAN HEAR His words?
Lets take a look!

Question 1 Answer)"He that is of God heareth God's words" (John 8:47)
The person who IS of God hears God's word (notice Jesus did not say the person who hears God's word "will be" of God).

Question 2)Brother Bob, who did the apostle Paul say will receive and believe his preaching of the cross? Lets take a look!

Question 2 Answer) "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which ARE SAVED it is the power of God"

The person who IS SAVED hears preaching of the cross (notice the apostle Paul did not say the person who hears his preaching "will be saved"). Big difference in tense!

Brother Joe

 

quote:
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Moreover, Jesus teaches that belief sfollow eternal life (not the other way around.)

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BROTHER BOB: And the text for that?

Missing --


BROTHER JOE: No it is not missing. Here are just a few texts for that:

Jesus said "MY SHEEP hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me" (John 10:27) Notice those spoken of here are already referred to as one of Jesus's sheep BEFORE they hear and follow his voice. The text does not say "they hear my voice, follow me, and then become my sheep."

This is reiterated two more times by Jesus in the same chapter. "the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out." (John 10:3). Notice again they are already referred to as Jesus's "own sheep" before he calls them out and leads them.

And again, "And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice" (John 10:16) Here Jesus says they are his sheep but in the future they will hear his voice.

And again, "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me" (John 6:37). Notice the pattern, the individual is first given to Christ by the Father and then Jesus said they shall (this means in the future) come to him.

In a certain sense we can even say that God's grace was given to us before the world began when God willed to do it because when God wills something it is as good as done. Thus the apostle Paul states, "his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began" (2 Timothy 1:9) This grace was willed before the world began,legally given during the atonement, then biologically and individually applied to us during regeneration, and manifested to us during our gospel conversion.

God bless you,

Brother Joe

 

Brother Bob said: They must first BELIEVE and then they are "born of God"


Brother Joe: Brother Bob what comes first in physical life- the baby being born or the baby believing his parents word? Does not life always precedes action?

Paul says that faith is a fruit of the spirit in Galations 5:22. To have a fruit one must first have the tree (the Holy Ghost.) The idea that faith comes before having the Holy Spirit is like saying the fruit appears and then the tree is planted.

Likewise, though Jesus says, "And let him that heareth say, Come.And let him that is athirst come.." (Rev 22:17a). We must also remember that in order to hear, we must first be born and have been given ears to hear, and that in order to thirst we must first be made alive in order to feel thirsty.

Remember the Bible compares becoming born again to a birth, a creation, and a raising of the dead. What do all three of these things have in common. Well,not only God alone can do all three, but man is also passive in all three!

Please consider what I say and I enjoy this thread you have started.

God bless you Brother Bob,

Brother Joe

 

RC and Bob:

I see the two of you are discussing Roman 8:28 etc.

Here is a quote from my favorite pastor Elder Michael Gowen on the passage, " Romans 8:28 demonstrates the certainty of regeneration: "And we know that all things work together for good to them who love God, to them who are the called according to His purpose." Who loves God? "The called." Why are they called? Because God "purposed" to call them... Now trace the "whom's" and the "them's" in Romans 8:29-30. The same group of people God foreknew, He predestinated. The same people He predestinated, He called. The same people He called, He justified, and the same people He justified, He glorified. The end of verse thirty includes exactly the same number of people who were embraced at the beginning of verse twenty-nine. This indicates that everyone that God loved and Christ Jesus redeemed, will be quickened by the Spirit. The past tense ("called") is employed to show that since God decreed it, it is just as sure to occur as if it had already taken place."


Brother Joe

 

I never knew you He might say.

john.

 

If Jesus says He never knew you Bob He means He never knew you 'fore' or 'aft'. Only those foreknown are known.
John 10:14 "I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me
Let Jesus speak listen.
Matt 7:23 Then I will tell them plainly, `I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
I know 'never' is not much of a word but it is 'never' nevertheless.

john.

 

Painted youself into a corner Bob.

Amen J.P. Doesn't get more plan than that.

 

That is a weak argument. The word "knew" is used as an intimate knowing of the person, the person had no intimate, personal relationship with God, the same as a husband and wife, bride and bridegroom, etc.

Joseph didn't "know" Mary until after Jesus was born!

 

Webdog.

This is a VERY strong argument and is exactly what the text implies. God can love YOU before you are born.

Jeremiah 1:5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you.....

Same word, same implication.

 

I will agree that the word "knew" in Jeremiah and Matthew have the same meaning. I don't agree that meaning is "love", nor is there any proof as this is what it means. Does God have a personal relationship with the unborn? Can the unborn make a conscious decision to accept or reject what Christ did on the cross? Do you believe the millions of aborted children in this country each year are with Christ now? I do, and God's Word claims this is the case.

 

Hello webdog.

Yes of course He can He is Sovereign isn't He?

Luke 1:41 When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.

Luke 1:44 As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy.

One must be born again not make a decision.

I believe all children are saved because that's nice but it isn't scriptural as the scriptures are silent on the matter except for the children's children.

john.

 

I am through with the "Calvinism/Arminian" thing but I just want to say to BobRyan:

Thanks for the tip. I tried to email you back but your inbox was full. God bless.

 

Interesting how the "CHOSEN NATION" is "among them" in Matt 23.

That's not genetics you are saying there is it? "CHOSEN NATION" Sounds to me as if you are saying that it genes that saves Bob!

john.