The Bible's Arminian Sequence for salvation

"My question to you: Does God have to tell YOU everytime He tells someone about the gospel? Does He report to you?"

By the way...answer the question please. Any old chump can answer a question with a redirect ad hom attack. You didn't answer the question.

 

Hello KJ.

How many guesses can I have?

I know. You tell me the obvious. Are you interested in my answer? HaHa! Answer the question.

No I will not teach you that because I can't be bothered.

The forum is entitled Calvinism/Arminianism Debate and as such your ideas should conform in some slight measure to Arminianism or Calvinism. It's a very loose arrangment. That's good. You do not need to be an Arminian or Calvinist for a start but scripture rules our life what else is there apart from your own opinion? Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, they have no light of dawn.

Didn't say you had to use much did I? Some will do.

I did did I? If you say so.

Is it? Ok. As you say 'God knows'.

Car mechanics? You might be right but teaching Theology is a very special gift and it is related to the scriptures in some way I think. You seem to think that you can teach with the attitude that you don't want to study Theology, I am not a master theologian and though I used to want to be, I don't want to now. (See? That's backing up what I say.)
You say that you do not want to study God's revelation about Himself because you think that will cause you to become horrible in some way. Did you make a lot of progress with Theology?

I noticed.

In love?

john.

 

John...you have a way for showing the love of Christ...

 

Hello KJ.

That is very nice of you to say so but you really should not flatter me because I might become a big head. We have much in common.

john.

 

LOL...ok John

KJ

 

God gave us GREAT theologians. For us to learn from. Doctrine is given to keep UNITY in the faith. The problem is as Paul warned there will be HERETICS "within" the church that will teach false DOCTRINES. The problem is ALWAYS pupils, or unlearned people think they know more than the teachers. They don't adhere to the doctrines of the church and promote their untrained teachings to unfortunate unlearned people that are not disciplined enough to learn what is truth. This is one of the MAIN reasons the great teachers created catechisms and confessions of faith, to protect the sheep from heresy. But pride always gets in the way of some who think they know better than the teachers and through time bad teachings lead astray the ignorant, and over time a knew bad theology is born ! (Or actually an old one revived i.e. Pelagianism)...

Righteousness does not dwell in the land of forgetfulness.

 

No Bob,
I'll hold on to historical, unaltered, historical Christianity. Held by the fathers back to the Apostles students. Never been condemned as heresy, never has been stained with the poison of Greek secular humanists as their fathers, like Pelagius and Erasmus.

Your humanism has so blinded you in every aspect of your thinking Bob. Have you ever noticed that everything you talk about is how precious MAN is AND is focused on MAN not GOD?

You've gone on for months now with this garbage of God weeping over man (he's so precious) while in heaven. Will He ever have time to enjoy the praises of His chosen in heaven? .... Oh I guess not since we are going to be crying for those in hell for eternity also.... So heaven is going to be one big wet blanket because OUR FOCUS will be on poor, misguided, innocent but mislead man.... boo hooo hooo....

God weeps Bob NOT because of MAN but because of what he is DOING. You understanding of God is very much off center. All of God's attributes are centered in His HOLINESS including His love. There will be NO WEEPING in heaven, no remorse, no regret in heaven Bob. Why? NO sin !

We will be rejoicing and singing the praises in heaven! Guess why Bob? Because that is what God said we will be doing. We will be rejoicing in who God is Bob... and guess what? God is not just love, THAT is just ONE attribute of Himself. We will be glorifying Him for ALL His attributes AND who He is.... HOLY !! We will praise Him for His righteousness, which includes His JUSTICE Bob... The focus is on God not man Bob... I know how much you love man but sorry, in my Christianity, God is more important. His Just punishment over the ones in hell who HATE HIM and will be yelling obscenities in hate to Him, will be something for us to glorify God for in HIS JUSTICE (notice I didn't say REJOICE IN but glorify in... BIG difference) I think you misunderstand the difference between rejoicing and glorifying... We are not going to be happy and laughing and REJOICING over those in Hell, there is no GLADNESS in it, BUT we will be GLORIFYING GOD in it. No more tears, because there is no more sin, just rejoicing in God's perfection. I know it's hard to believe Bob, but God IS the focus in Heaven NOT the evil in Hell. You can't find ONE DIRECT verse that says otherwise. You can only interject false notions due to lack hermeneutical understanding into events that are forced and not included. You are contradicting scripture when you say we will be anything else but glorifying God in heaven Bob....

And quit with the Matt 23 refer. it isn't even talking about salvation. He was sad over the actions of the teachers keeping their students from learning of Him.

[ June 28, 2005, 10:34 AM: Message edited by: rc ]

 

Johnp said: "Hello KJ.

quote:
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Hi pinoybaptist...I would agree. Noone is saved from before the foundation of the world. I was saying that out of sarcasm because someobody has been arguing with me that they have been.
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Show us where KJ I'd like to join the discussion."

I say: How do you know I was talking about you John?

 

"I'll hold on to historical, unaltered, historical Christianity. Held by the fathers back to the Apostles students. Never been condemned as heresy,..."

Oh...I don't know about that. Shall I redirect you to another Christian site where this guy will attempt to teach you that Calvinism is rooted in what he calls manichaen gnosticism. Don't know whether he's right or not...just directing you to a place where it has been condemned as heresy.

Many people even now would condemn Calvinism as heresy...they just want to be nicer to Calvinists than Calvinists are to them.

I have a question. Why do Calvinists spend so much time trying to convert CHRISTIANS to their "theology" and not evangelizing the lost? Is it that you consider US lost?

"Your humanism has so blinded you in every aspect of your thinking Bob. Have you ever noticed that everything you talk about is how precious MAN is AND is focused on MAN not GOD?" Humanism is a stretch there, and a false accusation. Have you ever noticed that everything you talk about is "God hates, God hates, God hates"...but He loves precious (man centred) ME"??? Yep...that's what Calvinists sound like.

And if Arminianism was such a heresy, etc. wouldn't you expect us to be putting forth an equal effort to convert you to get you away from "sound doctrine"? After all...that would be the logical thing for us wicked Arminian (CHRISTIANS) to do, wouldn't it? As it stands, most Arminians get sick of the futility of the argument sooner or later and then try to go on with life.

 

Arminian fathers,

Pelegian - condemned as a heretic by the church
Zosimus (Archbishop of Rome) his decree ignored by church, beginning of secular humanism in church which was the start of the ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH and paved the way for indulgences and free will salvation through sacraments.

Erasmus - The King scholar of free-will. oh by the way, He was the leading SECULAR HUMANIST in the world.

ALL condemned by those who broke away from the Roman Catholic church....

Or are you saying your church fathers ARE the Roman Catholic fathers...you know the Popes?

And no Augustine was NOT a manichaen gnostic. Do your homework and read his CONFESSIONS.

 

Being condemned by someone doesn't mean anything. Roman Catholics condemned people...did that mean they were right?

I have no more trust in the "church fathers" such as Augustine, etc. than I do in Catholics, Muslims, and most Calvinists I come across today. The fathers were ok...the Bible is better.

Calvinist fathers:

Calvin...who many people say was a murderer.

Luther...who caused a political rebellion (which granted, he wasn't proud of but did it nonetheless)

"And no Augustine was NOT a manichaen gnostic. Do your homework and read his CONFESSIONS."
Could you go to the other site and prove it to that guy then?

 

"And if Arminianism was such a heresy, etc. wouldn't you expect us to be putting forth an equal effort to convert you to get you away from "sound doctrine"? After all...that would be the logical thing for us wicked Arminian (CHRISTIANS) to do, wouldn't it? As it stands, most Arminians get sick of the futility of the argument sooner or later and then try to go on with life."

 

What happened in the Reformation was feared by Luther and the reformers did come to pass. Though they broke away because of the over emphasis of the authority of the Church, we threw away the baby with the bathwater. There is a place for authority in the church. Unfortunately, the pendulum swung to far the other way and laymen are now dictating what is sound doctrine and not the church.

Paul was afraid of this also when talking about doctrine to Timothy. Sound doctrine unifies NOT divides. Heresy divides. That is what heresy means! It is natural for man to go against our authority (us depraved little sinners!) This has happened as a macrocosm with man and the church.

 

I agree with everything you said. As for men going against our authority, I even agree with you there. I just believe that the Holy Spirit convicts us all and gives us enough light to proceed or to reject Jesus.

Arminians don't believe that they are "good" and not "sinful". We just believe the Holy Spirit convicts and draws all, and men are responsible for the decision they make.

One thing I disagree with now. I don't think the church has the authority to determine sound doctrine. Scripture already determines it.

 

So if the Holy Spirit draws all what is its Chief Ends to the means of drawing? Didn't Jesus say that ALL that the father DRAWS (not spirit) WILL come to me and I will lift Him up in the last day?

And of the authority of the church, with so much history it is a difficult but fun and intriguing topic. But there is a role in the church wouldn't you agree for authoritative guidance?

Ephesians 4:11-13 11 And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and TEACHERS,(1) 12 to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, 13 until we all attain to the UNITY of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood,(1 )to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, Ephesians 4:14 4 so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every WIND OF DOCTRINE, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes.


1 Timothy 1:3-7 3 As I urged you when I was going to Macedonia, remain at Ephesus that you may charge certain persons not to teach any different doctrine , 4 nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies, which promote speculations rather than the stewardship(1 )from God that is by faith. 5 The aim of our charge is love that issues from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. 6 Certain persons, by swerving from these, have wandered away into vain discussion, 7 desiring to be teachers of the law, without understanding either what they are saying or the things about which they make confident assertions.

1 Timothy 4:6 6 If you put these things before the brothers,(1 )you will be a good servant of Christ Jesus, being trained in the words of the faith and of the good doctrine that you have followed.

1 Timothy 4:16 Keep a close watch on yourself and on the teaching . Persist in this, for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers.

1 Timothy 6:13-14 13 I charge you in the presence of God, who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who in his testimony before(1 )Pontius Pilate made the good confession, 14 to keep the commandment unstained and free from reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ,

Titus 1:9-11 9 He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught , so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it . 10 For there are many who are insubordinate, empty talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision party. 11 They must be silenced , since they are upsetting whole families by teaching for shameful gain what they ought not to teach.

Titus 2:1 Titus 2:1 But as for you, teach what accords with sound doctrine.

These are all pastoral commands. Given to the leaders of the church don't you agree?

Church councils were not witch hunts. They were the leaders of the church (and I am talking students of the apostles or grand students) that LISTENED to different teachings, searched the scriptures and weighed WHAT WAS ALREADY TAUGHT on the doctrine and came to a conclusion after usually MONTHS of study. They weren't a bunch of despots... (until Zosimus and after in the RC)