The Biblical Doctrine of Election: It is Specific

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by ReformedBaptist, Sep 6, 2008.

  1. ReformedBaptist

    ReformedBaptist
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    Dear BB:

    Here are some thoughts on the specificity of the doctrine of election.

    Question: Did God elect only nations or groups?

    Answer: No.

    Why?

    1. To say yes would be illogical. If God only elected nations or groups then it would be possible that no one within that group or nation could or would be saved. In other words, everyone in the group/nation could be lost.

    2. To say yes would be unscriptural. Here are examples of individual election:

    John 13:18 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.

    Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. (Paul includes himself, and individual, in this election)

    1 Cor 7:20-22 Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called. Art thou called being a servant? care not for it: but if thou mayest be made free, use it rather. For he that is called in the Lord, being a servant, is the Lord's freeman: likewise also he that is called, being free, is Christ's servant.

    2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

    The Christian calling is the historical ourworking of their election. And it is certain that we are called individually, then it is also certain that we are elected individually. Romans 11 is teaching that the elect remnant will be saved, within the elect nation. This is to ensure that some WILL be saved.

    2 Timothy 1:9 says "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,"

    Calling is, biblically, the historical outworking of God's purpose and grace which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began--election. In 1 cor 7 we see a great illustration of this because the individual Corinthians were to remain in their each individual condition (married, or unmarried, slave or free) in which they were CALLED. Calling cannot be separated from their election.

    RB
     
  2. MB

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    Let's face it, God is illogical to man and doesn't have to do what men may think is logical.
    Where do you get the idea that election would or could cause that whole group to be lost. The whole world is who Christ died for and he is not willing that any perish. Those who are saved are those who believe and trust in Christ.
    Here Christ is clearly speaking of the twelve and not anyone else.
    You just don't see that everyman has been elected or chosen for Salvation. The only thing stopping any, is their own rebellion.
    It's true preachers and missionaries are all called of God to do specific work for God. By the way everyman saved is called for missions.
    Calvinist and reformers all believe they are already His before Salvation. Most refuse to face the fact that we are all vessels of wrath before Salvation.
    The only nation that is elect is Israel and unless you are a Jew this election doesn't apply to you.
    If election is particular then Calvinist can boast that God has to save them because they are elect. Which is not biblical. The Jews the brothers of Paul in Romans 10 were elect yet because they could not submit to the righteousness of God they were still lost.
    MB
     
  3. rdwhite

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    AMEN MB, AMEN.

    Those who perish do so against the sovereign will of God.

    Since a Jew is unable to keep the law, unable to make sacrifice, his only hope is in the Messiah. A Jew who accepts Jesus as Messiah is no longer a Jew spiritually, he is in Christ. A Jew who rejects Jesus as Messiah is bound under the law and is accountable to do the works of the law. The law is still in effect. In order for the Abrahamic and Davidic promises to be fulfilled, God must elect a remnant from national Israel for his purpose. Jews who accept Jesus as Messiah can not be part of this election since they are part of the Body of Christ, separated from national Israel, under a better covenant.
     
  4. ReformedBaptist

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    So, let me understand...God creates man, gives him a mind, and I can't use it to understand His Word.....hmmm. :laugh:

    Those who are saved are indeed those who believe into Jesus Christ. However, your other comments are false and unscriptural.

    I guess this means that you agree that election is of individuals. Or perhaps you want to invent another election?

    This statement is utterly nonsensical. The only thing stopping someone from being elect or chosen is their own rebellion? huh? No, not every person is elect. If so, every person would be saved.

    Ok...methinks you bumped your head. You didn't even address what I wrote. Re-read the Scriptures. When the bible is speaking of our calling it is speaking of our salvation.

    You really ought to think about what you type before you type it. How, pray tell, can you possibly know what all calvinists and reformers believe. Futhermore, we are NOT all vessels of wrath before we are saved, but we are all in Adam, sons of disobedience. I refuse to accept your false and twisted understanding of Romans 9.

    I am Jew. One is not a Jew who is one made of flesh, but the one is a Jew who is one who is made one in the spirit. Circumcision is of the heart. There is one holy and elect nation and always has been. Gentiles are not made into a new and separate nation, but are grafted into the commonwealth of Israel.


    I suggest studying old arguments against calvinism. They are much better than the ones your inventing. :laugh: If election is particular then the calvinist can boast? Huh? I don't know if I should stop and with my mouth agape or laugh. Your sentence contains so much nonsense is amazing it was typed out.

    I am elect. But I have nothing of which I can boast. I wasn't chosen by God because of foreseen faith, holiness, receptivity, repentence, or anything else in me that might cause God to choose me. He chose me freely of His own pleasure, will, and purpose. He set His love on me before I had done and good or evil. Yes, the Calvinist has something in which he can boast...as a Calvinist I boast in the Lord.

    Your last sentence is ridiculous. Your confusing the choosing of a nation from with election unto salvation. And then you say they COULD not submit to the righteousness of God...which speaks of ability.

    Let me suggest that you stop, think, and then reply. Otherwise what is coming out is looking quite nonsensical.

    RB
     
  5. ReformedBaptist

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    There was little to nothing to "amen" in that man's reply.

    Those who perish do so against the prescriptive will of God. Nothing, absolutely nothing, happens apart from the secret or sovereign will of God (God's Decree). The secret will of God is not meant to be obeyed by men, but His prescriptive will is.

    The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law. Deut 29:29

    We are obligated to obey what God has revealed. But the secret things belong to the Lord.

    And I would have loved to see you say what you typed out here to all the writers of Scripture, espeically the Apostle Paul, who as a Christian repeatedly attests to the fact that he is a Jew according to the flesh. lol

    This is so nonsensical to me I can't even respond to it except to ask that you further explain it.

    RB
     
  6. skypair

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    Therein is found the definition of "election." God elects groups or nations whom He has chosen to reveal Himself to to accomplish His purposes --- ergo, God "elects" individual believers whom He has revealed Himself to to accomplish His purposes.

    Here's an example: God has chosen the church and Israel and individual members to His purposes because, though not all believe (children of Israel, 5 foolish virgins, various churches like Laodicea in Rev 2-3, etal.), to all of them God has revealed His will and they try (successfully or unsuccessfully) to obey it. Paul could speak of the whole church of Corinth as "elect" though he had to know that there were unbelievers among them, right?

    Not. "Election" is the outworking of "calling." What do we say of a person whom we send to the mission field? They are "called" to missions, right? They were first called to Christ and then called to ministry. It is afterward that they make their "calling and election" [or purpose] sure."

    Sure! They were called to Christ as married, free, etc. They needn't change that. They may even be called to ministry. They needn't change from a lawful state to answer that call either. Their "purpose" or "election" was already known of God given His knowledge of their individual situation when they would come to Christ.

    skypair

    RB[/QUOTE]
     
    #6 skypair, Sep 7, 2008
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  7. ReformedBaptist

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    The lingo in modern churches regarding calling and the biblical usage are not the same thing.

    RB
     
  8. donnA

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    I think you missed it.
    He says, if election were by nation, and not individually, then the whole nation would have to be saved, or none would be saved, meaning you and your entire country going to hell, because everyone in your country were not saved.
    the bible says God is not willing for any to perish. But I have always asked those citing this verse to explain it, why are there people lost and going to hell. I have never seen this answered, and if it can not be answered properly by the person using it, then they are misusing the verse. Becuae the way it is always used it would mean all are going to heaven, saved or not.
    So to you there are people Christ died for who got to hell, so that as far as that person in hell is concerned Christ died in vain?
    Apparently you believe God has the flaw of being illogical, then so would His book reflect that illogic, we would have no need to read and seek understanindg if in fact scripture were illogical, written by an illogical God.
    this is false. Just because we do not always understand all the works of God does not mean he is illogical.
     
    #8 donnA, Sep 8, 2008
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  9. skypair

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    Or perhaps we should say that Calvinism has developed their own lingo regarding "calling" and "election."

    See, this is where we run into a "dead end," RB. We can't even talk about calling and election rationally because one of us defines them from a scriptural POV (me) and one of us uses them from a Calvinist POV (you). Why isn't "calling" to salvation and "election" to ministry/purpose? Why do you see calling and election to be to salvation? It's because you do not perceive soul and spirit. You just want God to "give" everything and man to "do" nothing in order to receive everything.



    Please, what if Calvinism is the total fabrication of an unsaved, rebellioius (from Catholicism) man? Have you considered that possibility? What if Augustine was not "Christian" but merely a reformed hedonist? Have you considered that possibility? What if Luther was a man who was "possessed" with living the Christian life (sanctification from sin) but not with eternal justification? Sardis, "hath a name that liveth but art dead!" Do you even fathom that there is such a church? That it could exist today? That you might belong to it?

    I "beseech you," CHOOSE God! Don't be one of those who claim "He chose me." Under your theology, He just might have chosen you like He chose Pharoah! To be hardened and to never perceive the truth in spite of the number of times "Moses" tries to reveal Him to you.

    skypair
     
    #9 skypair, Sep 8, 2008
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  10. skypair

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    May I explain it one more time for you?

    Christ died for everyone's sin. ALL will be resurrected on account of Him. Whether to the Bema or to the GWT, they will be resurrected because their sin is paid for. The question in either case is "Are you reconciled with God?" That is, is your name/soul in the "book of life?" you won't get to the Bema if it is not -- you won't be saved at the GWT (despite that your sin has been "paid in full") if it is not.

    The "sin" that CANNOT be forgiven is UNBELIEF! If you don't choose to believe God and His Provision, you will be forgiven of every other sin and still be lost.

    skypair
     
  11. ReformedBaptist

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    Skypair,

    Perhaps I will consider the possibility that you don't know the Lord?

    How about this: "Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity." 2 Tim 2:19

    Now, get your strongest argument and take a wack at that. This is my foundation. This is where I stand.

    RB
     
    #11 ReformedBaptist, Sep 8, 2008
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  12. MB

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    I have no idea where you got the idea that you can't use your mind to understand the gospel. Maybe you can't I don't read minds.
    Well I did notice that you made no attempt to show what you have said is scriptural.

    There is more than one kind of election. God's idea not mine.
    Common error of Calvinist they think Election insures there Salvation. They forget that the Jews were all elect. Yet Paul states in:
    Rom 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
    What does Paul mean here? Pauls prayer is that Israel might be saved? But Israel is God's chosen people. They are all elected to Salvation.

    To say that all Jews are saved is indeed nonsensical

    If so then why are so many called and only a few chosen?

    Classic denial of the truth. If you can't believe what scripture says then why read it?

    A graft produces a new fruit not one of the same kind as it's root. It only lives by and through the root of another. It will never produce the same fruit there fore it is not the same kind. No matter how many Gentiles want to be Jews they will never be Jews.
    A Jew is a Jew by birth. Being grafted in does not make us Jews. It makes us part of the body of Christ. I am not under the Law but under grace.



    Your the one with the claim of particular election and absolutely no proof and your suggesting I study
    Here you make a claim. boasting of it and yet show no proof. then you claim you have nothing to boast of. Not only this but you make the claim that your election is particular which means God passed over others that he didn't choose to choose you. That in it self is reason to boast in your self as being more deserving than the others.
    When anything is chosen among so many possiblities there is always a reason. Otherwise the choice is random. In which case this would make God's choice of us by chance. Chance implies fate, implying that God is gambling by His choices.
    Disability has been refuted so many times that it seems incredulous that you could believe the sayings of men over God's word. Catholics do this all the time, it's why they are so misguided. I follow Christ not some guy who is dead and forgotten of. If you reject what the word says, what's the point of reading it at all. Submission is not ability but a giving up to God. Simply, with out submission there is no Salvation. Submission is the result of being defeated.
    [/quote]
    Let me suggest that you stop, think, and then reply. Otherwise what is coming out is looking quite nonsensical.

    RB[/quote]
    I will never stop with the truth no matter what you think. What we don't understand is always foolishness, isn't it?
     
  13. lbaker

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    Okay, I guess I might as well play "pile on the Cavinist" too.

    I actually can see how one could come to the Reformed conclusions about scripture. Not that I agree that is the only view, but I can see how one could get there.

    One of the inconsistencies I see, and I know you have heard this before, is why don't I just live in total abandon since what I do, what I believe, makes no difference as to my election or non-election? If I'm elect I've got it made, regardless. If I'm not elect, I'm doomed, regardless.

    So, why not just eat, drink, and be merry, if I believe Calvinism is true?

    (I'm really not being sarcastic here)
     
  14. Rippon

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    All Scripture From TNIV

    It doesn't matter what you do or believe?Now that's absurd.First of all the Lord softens the hearts of His elect ones to believe.He gives them faith and repentance.

    But let's get specific with Scripture regarding your contention that Calvinists must be antinomians.

    Romans 6:1,2 :"What shall we say then?Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase?By no means!We are those who have died to sin;how can we live in it any longer?"

    Romans 6:15 :"What then?Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace?"
     
  15. MB

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    Hi Donna;
    Election does not insure that we will in fact be saved. Scripture never says it is insurance of Salvation. Election is the choosing period, nothing more.
    People go to hell for one reason. They have chosen to stay in the darkness.
    Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
    Joh 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
    Man does not choose the light not because he can't but because he loves the darkness. The only choice man has is to rebel. When man comes to God it isn't because of anything the man does because Salvation is all of God. God isn't willing that any should perish but men do because they will not come to the light and that is man's condemnation. It is sin that separates us from God and always has been. As long as man rebels against God he will be lost. This should not be considered to be a choice between the two. When we come to God it is soley the work of God. Man cannot perform the work of God on his own. We are drawn by God, we are convinced by God, we are convicted by God, we know of God because of God. We do not seek God nor could or would we with out knowing there is a God. Therefore Salvation is all of God. As I said before man's only choice is to stay in darkness.
    God does see that the light is shown us anyway so that we have no excuse. We may even believe the truth and still stay in darkness because some can't handle the conviction. These are they who hold the truth in unrighteousness.
    Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
    It isn't God's will that men are lost but it is the will of the men who are.
    Here you express this same understanding;
    No that isn't what I'm saying. Christ did not die in vain. Those who go to hell are only receiving there just reward. They had the same opportunity as the rest of us. it isn't the fault of Christ they weren't saved but is there own responsibility. By saying Christ died in vain places the responsibility on Christ.
    I wouldn't call it God's flaw but the flaw in man's logic. Man's logic is flawed because, man isn't all knowing. There fore man's logic could never be perfect. Man's perception is then that God's logic is illogical. The fact there is a God is illogical in matters of science, and Logic is science. The logical and spiritual have always been in disagreement. God for one has no need to figure anything out there for God doesn't need logic. God knows all there is to know He doesn't figure things out because He already knows the answer. Where then is God's logic?
    MB
     
  16. lbaker

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    Okay, obviously I don't understand something here. I thought the basic idea was that nothing we did had any influence on our election or non-election. Is this incorrect?
     
  17. skypair

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    Ibaker,

    You make a good point -- let's go back to the original reason for their sotierology -- how it was actually "crafted." I believe it is this: The early church (Catholic and Reform) baptized the "elect" into the kingdom shortly after birth. That was the point at which, following in the Catholic tradition (and, I believe, Augstine as well), one was forgiven of original sin, justified with God, and given into the kingdom of His Son.

    So how does that work out in the Augustinian/Calvinist/Reform salvation paradigm? Well, there's no more any need to wring a decision (a "sinner's prayer," a "walk the aisle," a "rebaptism") out of anyone unto justification with God (And we do find that the early Calvie/Reform churches were dead set against "rebaptizing." It was an affront to the notion that they were already entered into the kingdom as infants).

    Now that's a pretty big "hole" in sotierology, is you ask me. Fact, you think about it, were Calvin or Luther or any of them "rebaptized?" or was their justification/salvation in their Catholic baptism still? I guess they considered themselves to already be believers though they preached a whole new way to salvation. That kinda fits with their paradigm, too, doesn't it?

    Anyway, NOW all that come into their kingdom are presumed to be "elect" and "indwelt"/"regenerated" already. Their "decisions" as already being "elect," thus, are about how they are going to live their lives now that they believe -- which affects sanctification but not justification else justification would be by "works."

    The real truth in rebaptizing or believer's baptism is to show that been justified through personal death with Christ and personal resurrection of the Holy Spirit. Well, if one already has the Spirit, one is already justified through the blood of Christ. There is no need to be "rejustified" by choosing Christas Savior -- He already is!

    Thw whole thing kinda reminds me of Acts 19 where believing disciples of John the Baptist learned about Christ, who converted, and then rebaptized in the name of Jesus. These disciples realized 2 things: 1) that their earliler baptism was to God but not through Christ and 2) it was incumbent on they themselves to put themselves into Christ rather than continue on in the gospel they first believed.

    This is my view anyway. I'm sure there will be some come around to correct it right quick! :laugh:

    skypair
     
    #17 skypair, Sep 13, 2008
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  18. ReformedBaptist

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    Are you one of God's elect lbaker? If so, why did God choose you?

    RB
     
  19. AresMan

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    No, but our election has influence on us. ;)
     
  20. TomMann

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    So are you saying they thwart the sovereign will of God?
     

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