The Biblical God

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by Iconoclast, Jun 21, 2014.

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  1. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
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    If the God revealed in scripture was exactly as described in the 1689 Confession of Faith.......would you worship and serve Him as your Lord and King?


    As described here;
    http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/creeds/bcof.htm


    3. God's Decree


    1.God has decreed in Himself from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things which shall ever come to pass.
    - Yet in such a way that God is neither the author of sin nor does He have fellowship with any in the committing of sins, nor is violence offered to the will of the creature , nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.

    - In all this God's wisdom is displayed, disposing all things, and also His power and faithfulness in accomplishing His decree.



    2. Although God knows everything which may or can come to pass under all imaginable conditions, yet He has not decreed anything because He foresaw it in the future, or because it would come to pass under certain conditions.


    3. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels are predestinated or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of His glorious grace. Others are left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of His glorious justice.


    4. Those angels and men thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and the number of them is so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.


    5. Those of mankind who are predestinated to life, God chose before the foundation of the world was laid, in accordance with His eternal and immutable purpose and the secret counsel and good pleasure of His will. God chose them in Christ for everlasting glory, solely out of His free grace and love, without anything in the creature as a condition or cause moving Him to choose.


    6. As God has appointed the elect unto glory, so, by the eternal and completely free intention of His will, He has foreordained all the means. Accordingly, those who are elected, being fallen in Adam:
    - are redeemed by Christ,

    - are effectually called to faith in Christ by His Spirit working in due season,

    - are justified, adopted, sanctified,

    - and are kept by His power through faith unto salvation;

    - neither are any but the elect redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved.



    7. The doctrine of this high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care, in order that men who are heeding the will of God revealed in His Word, and who are yielding obedience to it, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation be assured of their eternal election.
    So shall this doctrine provide cause for praise, reverence, admiration of God, and also provide cause for humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all who sincerely obey the Gospel.
     
    #1 Iconoclast, Jun 21, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 21, 2014
  2. Revmitchell

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    I would, I just do not agree that some of that confession represents God correctly.

    I am ok if that is the truth, I just disagree that it is correct.
     
  3. Winman

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    No, but fortunately he is nothing like the 1689 Confession of Faith describes him.

    If God has decreed things, and they must unchangeably come to pass, then God is the author of sin. Men are not sinning by choice, but because God has decreed it.

    Now, God in his foreknowledge can infallibly know what will certainly happen, and he can allow sinful acts to happen, but that does not make him the author of sin. It cannot be said these acts are unchangeable, God allows men free choice, only he foreknows exactly what their free choice will be. A perfect example is Judas, Jesus knew "from the beginning" that he would believe not, and that he would betray him, but he did not cause Judas to sin.

    A passage that shows things do not "unchangeably" happen is when God warned David that Saul would come down to Keilah after him. David fled and Saul did not come down as God said.

    1 Sam 23:10 Then said David, O LORD God of Israel, thy servant hath certainly heard that Saul seeketh to come to Keilah, to destroy the city for my sake.
    11 Will the men of Keilah deliver me up into his hand? will Saul come down, as thy servant hath heard? O LORD God of Israel, I beseech thee, tell thy servant. And the LORD said, He will come down.
    12 Then said David, Will the men of Keilah deliver me and my men into the hand of Saul? And the LORD said, They will deliver thee up.
    13 Then David and his men, which were about six hundred, arose and departed out of Keilah, and went whithersoever they could go. And it was told Saul that David was escaped from Keilah; and he forbare to go forth.

    Either things changed here, or God lied in vs. 11 when he told David that Saul would come down to Keilah.

    No, God in his foreknowledge knew that if David stayed, Saul would certainly come down to Keilah, and that the men would deliver David to Saul. But when David fled the city, Saul changed his mind and did not come down to Keilah as he had planned.

    By the way, this passage shows God's foreknowledge of an event. :thumbsup:

    This is plain silly, I would like to know how they know this. How do they know God did not in his foreknowledge foresee who would believe on Jesus in time and choose or elect these persons? In fact, I believe there is scripture that shows God did choose persons because he knew they would believe or not.

    Jhn 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
    71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

    Jesus knew from the beginning (vs. 64) that Judas would not believe and would betray him, and this is why he chose Judas, to bring about his plan. He did know the other eleven would believe (not devils), and that they would give their lives to spread the gospel, also his plan.

    So, here is an example of God choosing persons upon foreknowledge of their faith (or lack of) directly shown in scripture, pretty hard to deny it.

    Well, those who believe on Jesus will be saved, those who believe not will be damned (Mar 16:16), but God does not determine who will believe and who will not. If God determined men would not believe, God would be the author of sin. God never even tempts any man to sin (Jam 1:13).

    The problem here is the word "designed". If someone is designed not to believe, then God is the author of sin.

    Now, God in his foreknowledge infallibly knows who will believe and who will believe not, but that does not make him the author of sin.

    This statement is ridiculous and an obvious contradiction. It says men are chosen "in Christ" and then directly contradicts this and says there was nothing in the creature as a condition or cause moving him to choose them.

    I don't see how any half intelligent person could believe this nonsense.

    Yes.

    Yes.

    Yes.

    Yes.

    False. Jesus paid for and bought all men with his blood, including unbelievers and false teachers.

    2 Pet 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

    Well, false doctrine like this hardly provides cause for the praise, reverence, and admiration of God. In fact, I would say doctrine like this has created millions of atheists over the centuries who detest a God who would determine to damn billions of men, not for anything good or bad they have done (Rom 9:11), but simply because he is pleased to do so and also that it brings him glory.
     
  4. Revmitchell

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    Wow. So God has to do it your way or not at all?
     
  5. Winman

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    What a silly thing to say. I simply am saying the 1689 confession is not an accurate representation of the God of the Bible, and I gave my reasons why. My reasons are not based on my personal opinions, but what I believe the Bible truly teaches, and I posted some of those scriptures to support my view.

    You don't have to agree with my views, believe whatever you want.
     
  6. Revmitchell

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    A couple of things. First I did not "say" I asked for clarification. The tell tale sign of this intent is the question mark. Second, you did not "simply" give your view. What you did was say that even if you were to find out the Calvinist view was correct that is a God you would refuse to worship. Hence my question I asked.

    You need to learn to be able to discern between making a declaration "saying" and asking a question.

    See the op begins by asking a question of which you seem to ignore. Then I asked a question of which you ignored and falsely claimed it was a statement. You cannot have a reasonable discussion if that is how you are going to treat people.
     
    #6 Revmitchell, Jun 21, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 21, 2014
  7. Yeshua1

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    God chose the Jews ro be His Old Covenant people, corrct/ established israel out from all other bations, correct?

    Did He see ANYTHING in tghem that would merit his selection of them to be the people to receive divine revelations, and have the messiah coming thru them?

    That was unconditioanl on His part, based upom Him alone, so why would we expect him NOT to do it the same fashion, especially in the new/greater covenant?
     
  8. Yeshua1

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    Assuming though that it does accuraely decribe God and His ways...

    Would you find fault with how God decided to do things?
     
  9. Winman

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    Why would I assume the 1689 confession is accurate when I can read my Bible and know for a certainty it is not accurate?

    Is that how you determine what you believe, you simply assume?

    Study your Bible and you will not assume the 1689 confession is accurate. :thumbsup:
     
  10. Rippon

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    You ought to tremble for saying such a wicked thing.
    That's right, you believe in the sovereignty of man. Man determines if he shall believe or not.
    Such foolishness comes from your keystrokes. God determines who shall believe. Are you blaming God for those who choose not to believe --"of their own free will" as you love to say?
    Including all who died in the Great Flood,Sodom and Gomorrah, Judas,Pharaoh,
    the beast out of the sea and the beast out of the earth,the ones for whom blackest darkness has been reserved for ever?? You need to give it up winman.
    Heaven is not for for God-haters. Think it through winman.
     
  11. Rippon

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    No, you are not "simply saying the above." You had said that God is nothing like what the 1689 Confession of Faith describes Him. That is a far cry from "not an accurate representation."
     
  12. Winman

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    Take the first point, that God ordains all that comes to pass; According to the Bible, is this true? NO.

    Jer 19:5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:

    How could God ordain something that he did not command? That is a direct contradiction and cannot be true.

    The definition of ordain is to command;
    That is the definition of the word "ordain" from the dictionary. It means to command or dictate. God clearly says he did not command the Jews to sacrifice their children to idols, so how could he have ordained it? That is a direct contradiction.

    So, the 1689 CoF cannot be correct according to Jer 19:5 and many other scriptures.
     
  13. Winman

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    I said God is nothing like the 1689 CoF describes him, then I said the 1689 CoF is not an accurate representation of the God of the Bible. What is the problem? That is saying the same thing.

    I think the 1689 CoF is full of errors, and I have been pointing them out with scripture to support my view. If you think my view is error, refute it.
     
  14. Winman

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    You should tremble, you are worshiping a man-made document.

    Correct, and God has determined to save those that choose to believe, and damn those who refuse to believe. God is in ultimate control.

    Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

    An analogy might help. Your business does not force you to come to work. You can stay home any time you choose, but if you stay home too often, they will fire you. You are not calling the shots, they are.

    God enables all men to believe, but men choose whether they believe or not.

    It is like my view, you can believe it, or you can choose not to believe it.

    I will let God be the judge of those men, not my job.

    Then salvation is conditional. Goodbye TULIP :thumbsup:
     
  15. Rippon

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    Words apparently mean little to you. An inaccurate representation and "nothing like" are different categories.

    The 1689 is very biblical,as was the Savoy Declaration it was based upon which in turn was based on the WCoF. Whereas, your novel shenanigans are quite unsound.
     
  16. th1bill

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    Saved 24+ years ago and have been studying since and I find no issue with this document. The Gospels teach uis the our LORD taught the Way was straight and the Gate narrow. He also instructed us that many would say to Him, "LORD, LORD, we... in your name." and Jesus says to them, "...I never knew you." God/Jesus is not the way we have made Him out to be.

    Many deny that God hasany wrath and that all go to Heaven and that sounds so wonderful that there are people claiming the name of Jesus that are Baptists and they have staked their eternity on this herecy.

    God is and I am His bond servant/child and just as my dad ruled over me, so does my LORD and neither my nor does anybody elses opinion matter. I serve and He is.
     
  17. Winman

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    Is this supposed to be your argument in support of the 1689 CoF?

    If so, it's not making it.
     
  18. Rippon

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    Wrong again Sir Winman. Take a gander at what Jesus said in John 6:65:"This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them." 9NIV)
     
  19. Revmitchell

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    bump.........................
     
  20. Yeshua1

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    Nope, as salvation is fully started and completed by the lord Himself!
     
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