1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured The Blessedness - Romans 4:6-8

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by The Biblicist, Jun 28, 2012.

  1. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    16,008
    Likes Received:
    481
    It is the very same Greek term translated "reckoned" and "Imputed" and "counted" in Roman 4.

    Both are true. Our faith is counted/imputed/reckoned for righteousness and righteousness (Rom. 4:5-6) is imputed/reckoned/counted unto us (Rom. 4:11). As the introduction to this section (Rom. 3:24-26) and the conclusion of this section (Rom. 4:22-25) demonstrates it is the OBJECT OF FAITH - the person and work of Jesus Christ and His righteousness that is imputed/counted/reckoned to our account by faith.
     
    #21 The Biblicist, Jul 7, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 7, 2012
  2. Moriah

    Moriah New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2011
    Messages:
    3,540
    Likes Received:
    0
    Believers in Christ are credited with righteousness. Our faith in Jesus is credited to us as righteousness, and not works of the law like circumcision, and sin offerings.
     
  3. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    16,008
    Likes Received:
    481
    Getting back on the OP. Paul demonstrates why neither circumcision or any other divine ordinance is sacramental, but rather the remission of sins (vv. 7-8) and imputed righteousness was obtained by Abraham BEFORE circumcision and BEFORE the giving of the Law to Moses through faith alone.

    Those who abuse this passage ignore the introduction and conclusion of this passage when they interpret justification by faith.

    In the Introduction - Rom. 3:24-26 - Paul demonstrates that the faith he is speaking about is faith that has for its object the redemptive work of Jesus Christ - faith in His blood and faith in His person:

    24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
    25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
    26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus
    .

    Abraham is given as an illustration of such a person that placed "FAITH IN HIS BLOOD" and one who "BELIEVETH IN JESUS."

    This is made clear also in the application at the conclusion of this discourse on justification by faith that the example of Abraham is our example to follow:

    23 ¶ Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
    24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
    25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
    1 ¶ Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ
    :

    This context has NOTHING to do with OUR righteousness being credited to us but only the righteousness of Christ credited our account by faith "WITHOUT WORKS."

    The nature of "works" in Romans 4:1-6 are those of Abraham BEFORE he was given circumcision and BEFORE the law of Moses was given. Hence, "works" and "without works" in this context refer to his PERSONAL WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS which he could perform! He was justified WITHOUT such works as Romans 4:21 demands that the faith that justifies is a faith completely WITHOUT any kind of PARTICIPATING EFFORTS by Abraham:

    21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.

    Paul denies that Abraham or Sarah participated or supplied or contributed ANYTHING to obtaining this promise by faith because her womb was DEAD and his body was DEAD in regard to reproduction.

    19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara’s womb:

    Hence, "faith" and "believeth" is defined in verse 21 as a faith that merely RECEIVES and RESTS upon God's Power to perform God's Promise and that is the nature of justifying fait that is set forth as the example for US to follow:

    21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
    22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
    23 ¶ Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
    24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him
    that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
    25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
    1 ¶ Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:


    CONCLUSION: Now I will tell you what the false teachers on this forum will say concerning this expository evidence I just presented. First they will deny it, but without any contextual evidence to support their denial. Second they will run from this context, jump to another context and PIT that scripture against this one. That is how ALL false teachers operate. That is their MODUS OPERANDI! Watch and see!
     
    #23 The Biblicist, Jul 7, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 7, 2012
  4. Moriah

    Moriah New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2011
    Messages:
    3,540
    Likes Received:
    0
    It is worthless and damaging explanations given in this group.
     
  5. Michael Wrenn

    Michael Wrenn New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    4,319
    Likes Received:
    0
    I'm glad somebody can see the truth besides me.

    Others think they are defending Biblical doctrine when in reality they are defending forensic justification as taught by Luther.
     
  6. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    16,008
    Likes Received:
    481
    You are speaking about yourself and just don't know it!
     
  7. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    16,008
    Likes Received:
    481
    Paul taught it long before Luther! The subject is the "ungodly" not the righteous (Rom. 4:5). The righteousness obtained by faith is "without works" not inclusive of our works of righteousness. The "works" or "without works" in this context is works prior to cirumcision, prior to the Law of Moses (Rom. 4:1-6). The faith defined by the context is RECEIVING and RESTING in the power of God to provide what is promised WITHOUT any kind of participation or contribution on our part (Rom. 4:21)

    Hence, when all these factors are taken together the only righteousness obtained by faith in this context is LEGAL and FORENSIC by imputation as these factors excludes any other possibility.
     
    #27 The Biblicist, Jul 7, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 7, 2012
  8. Moriah

    Moriah New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2011
    Messages:
    3,540
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thanks Michael.

    I did not know they were defending forensic justification as taught by Luther.

    Whenever I find myself having to force myself to read what Biblicist and some others here post, I know that I am not reading something of truth. It is as if the Spirit inside me is resisting. The Spirit inside me fills my heart with joy when I read God’s truth.

    Seriously, I have to force myself to get through what Biblicist and SBM write.
     
  9. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    16,008
    Likes Received:
    481
    Why don't you try to EXEGETICALLY deal with scriptures for a change? If you cannot do that then do so EXPOSITORILY? I have not yet seen one single solitary post where anything you said was based upon sound exegesis or expository teaching. "A prooftext contrary to context is pretext" describes your whole theology. You respond like you think your inspired by God or something without any regard for context.
     
  10. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    16,008
    Likes Received:
    481
    Instead of complaining and making false charges, why don't you and Moriah attempt to demonstrate what I said is not exegetically based? I will tell you why? Because you cannot! End of story!
     
  11. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    16,008
    Likes Received:
    481
    I predicted what the conclusion would be and as predicted it came to pass and I certainly do not claim to be a prophet. However, some people are so predicatable. They have no exegetical skills so what else can they do but pit scripture against scripture or make some kind of outlandish charges.

    Gentleman, DEMONSTRATE contextually I am wrong in my exposition or don't waste our time with your hot and empty air?
     
  12. Michael Wrenn

    Michael Wrenn New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    4,319
    Likes Received:
    0
    I think it is kind of amusing to see Particular Baptists on this forum deny that that brand of Baptist is Protestant, when in fact Particular Baptist soteriology follows almost exactly that of the Magisterial Reformers, including the false doctrines of total depravity, penal substitution, forensic justification, and a host of others. The first and original Baptists -- the Anabaptists -- did not. It is rightly said that the Anabaptists and their cousins the General Baptists were not Protestant, but that can't be said of the Particular Baptists and their agreement with Calvin and Luther.
     
  13. Michael Wrenn

    Michael Wrenn New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    4,319
    Likes Received:
    0
    I have already shown it. End of story.
     
  14. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    16,008
    Likes Received:
    481
    Don't derail this thread! Either deal with the evidence placed before you or go somewhere else!

    I predicted exactly how you would respond simply because you simply and totally disregard Biblical context and so you either go to name calling or denial but NEVER any serious Biblical based exegetical response to the evidence. If you can't deal with evidence I presented then don't waste our time and stop attempting to derail this OP.
     
    #34 The Biblicist, Jul 7, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 7, 2012
  15. Michael Wrenn

    Michael Wrenn New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    4,319
    Likes Received:
    0

    The only hot air balloon is you. As everyone can see see, it is you who has started with the insults, but I'll defend myself.

    I guess someone like you resorts to insults to cover up a false argument and position.
     
  16. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    16,008
    Likes Received:
    481
    Deal with evidence! If you cannot then it is clear who is full of hot air and who is placing down the Biblical evidence! This is a debate forum. Either debate or get off.
     
  17. Michael Wrenn

    Michael Wrenn New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    4,319
    Likes Received:
    0
    I have dealt with it, accuser. You just don't like what I've said.
     
  18. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    16,008
    Likes Received:
    481
    You have not made one post on this thread to the evidence I presented above. Go back and look at my posts. You and Moriah simply started making fun and name calling in response to the posts (which I predicted) because you cannot respond to what I said.

    Prove me to be a liar and DEMONSTRATE what I said was CONTEXTUALLY inaccurate! I dare you = shut my mouth with contextual evidence that I am wrong!
     
  19. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    16,008
    Likes Received:
    481
    This post NO ONE has responded to!
     
  20. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    16,008
    Likes Received:
    481
    This post no one has responded to with a contextual rebuttal.
     
Loading...