Featured The Blessedness - Romans 4:6-8

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Verse three speaks of Abraham.
Verse five starts with the word But, indicating a contrast from the believing Abraham to the unbeliever who is not justified. It says what it says; it means what it says:
The unbeliever who does no work, obeys not, but simply believes on God (Christ), that man is justified and his faith is counted for righteousness. God has given him a standing of righteousness because of his faith in God. He is justified by faith alone; no works involved.
Salvation is by faith alone, and not of any kind of works: works of the law, good works, not any kind of works. This is what the passage is teaching. To him that works not, but believes on him that justifies the ungodly...

The Scriptures do not indicate that circumcision was included in any of the works that Abraham did. The "works of the law," came long after Abraham's life. Circumcision is not what is referred to here. In the larger scope of his life it is a rather insignificant event.

Romans 4:1-2 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

What is being referred to here?
The fact that Abraham by faith left Ur of the Chaldees.
He went to a place where he knew not where he was going.
He dwelt in tents, lived a nomadic life, according to the will of God.
He grew old, Sarah past the time of her life, and yet still held to the promise that God would give them a son.
When given a son he was told to sacrifice him.
He sacrificed him; but God provided a substitute as the knife was about to fall.
He continued to walk with God.
He rescued his nephew Lot with 315 of his own hired servants.

And the story of his life goes on and on. His works can be counted. They seem to be numberless. Circumcision was not one of them. That is not what people saw in the works of Abraham. They saw a man who walked by faith; a man who was called "The Friend of God."

But if Abraham boasted in his own works, he could not glory.
Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
--The works were all a result of his belief in God. Abraham's faith counted him righteous. He was made righteous because he had put his faith in the Lord.

Why do you harp on circumcision. Abraham lived ca. 2100, and Moses ca. 4,000, almost 2,000 years after the time of Abraham. Abraham came long before the law. Circumcision had nothing to do with the salvation of Abraham. Abraham was saved by faith and faith alone. If you don't believe that then you reject the Scripture:

Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
--There is nothing about obedience; nothing about circumcision.

Faith is not a work. Therefore there is no personal participation.

Romans 4:18-21 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations; according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be. And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb: He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
The last part of this verse is one of the best definitions of faith in the Bible.
It is "being fully persuaded that what God has promised, God will do."
Thus faith is not a work.
It is not participation with God. It is a simple belief and trust that God will accomplish what he has promised. That is what God did. He did it all without Abraham's help. God kept his promise to Abraham. Abraham did nothing. It was all of grace.

What is that supposed to mean.
Does God have a big chalk board, and every time you show a little bit of faith in him, He says, "good for you Moriah," and puts up a mark on the chalk board for you. Then when you get to heaven you can count all that you have "merited" in heaven. Salvation by works is heresy.

 

No way is the man who “obeys not” in right standing with God. YOU ADDED TO THE WORD OF GOD WHEN YOU SAID the Bible says what is says, and means what it says; then you say, “The unbeliever who does no work, obeys not, but simply believes on God (Christ), that man is justified and his faith is counted for righteousness.” I can hardly believe I am reading this from you.

God gave to Abraham the work of circumcision as a seal of his faith! Abraham believed AND OBEYED GOD EVEN BEFORE THIS. When did Abraham go where God said to go, was it before or after circumcision? It was before circumcision!

Why would God and Jesus make their home with someone who does not obey? Jesus says the Father and he will make their home with those who obey! See John 14:23.

Are you kidding? The Bible SPEAKS of whether Abraham was justified BEFORE or AFTER CIRCUMCISION!
The Bible SAYS CIRCUMCISION.

The Bible does not say Abraham was justified before he obeyed God and went to where God said to go! In fact, the Bible tells us that BY FAITH ABRAHAM MADE AN ACTION. BY FAITH, Abraham went where God said to go. BY FAITH, Abraham offered Isaac as a sacrifice.

Ask yourself this, did God nail obeying Him to the cross? NO! Did God nail circumcision of the flesh to the cross? YES!

If a person does not have a mind and heart set on obeying God, if a person does not obey God, then how that person is different from Satan is something you need to explain.

Faith IS a personal participation.

I have an unwavering faith. I do not doubt.

How is it that you do not see it as wrong to teach no obedience to God and Jesus in order to be saved?

 

I have dealt with the Biblical text that way; you just cannot accept it because that would upset the applecart of your being able to infallibly interpret scripture -- infallibly in your own mind, that is.

 

1. Salvation is by faith and faith alone.
2. Salvation is not by works. That teaching is your teaching and is heresy.
3. Salvation is by grace through faith...not of works. You deny the Scripture.
4. We are justified by faith and therefore have peace with God. (Rom.5:1) You deny this Scripture.
5. Abraham believed God and righteousness was imputed unto him. You deny this Scripture.

You deny the totality of Scripture which teaches that salvation is by faith and not of works. It is not of obedience (works), it is of faith. Why do you deny the Bible?

 

DHK,

You should go and reply to each of my comments, for you speak of me doing that, why do you not? You rarely, if ever address what I say to you.

 

I can hardly believe what you say. How can anybody preach no obedience?

James says faith without action is dead.

You teach dead faith. You teach that dead faith is the kind that saves!

 

Even the demons believe that there is One God; they believe this while they have the shuddering action.

I can hardly believe that you teach us not to obey to be saved.

James 2:22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.

James 2:17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

James 2:19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder.

 

That is what you are doing, not I. Your interpretation is colored by the Magisterial Reformers. I am interpreting the scripture literally, then showing how the earliest churches, the Eastern church, and the Anabaptists viewed it. Forensic justification and imputed righteousness were invented by the Magisterial Reformers whose doctrines were as false as those of the RCC -- more so, in some cases.

 

Biblicist,

Stop accusing Michael of things he does not do.

Man it gets old to hear that unfounded nonsense as a defense to debating doctrine and sharing our beliefs.

 

Moriah, what is the object of your faith? Yourself? Satan? Christ?
The object of the demons faith was not God; it was Satan himself, and therefore they were not saved. They shuddered at the awesome power of God and the knowledge they had of the end of the world. But they were followers of another leader, Satan. That was the object of their faith.

I "believe" that Nero existed and did the terrible things that he did. But he is not the object of my faith. Nor does he make me shudder. The object of my faith is Christ. He is my Lord and King; to him I am subservient. Please use the word correctly.

 

I have done that repeatedly; it's not my fault that you are too blind to see it and too undiscerning to recognize it. I started with scripture, and then I showed how the earliest churches, the Eastern church, and the Anabaptists agreed, and how it was the Magisterial Reformers invented unbiblical doctrines.

There is a vast difference in reckoning our faith as righteousness as the scripture teaches, and attributing or imputing a false righteousness based on a legal transaction. The latter is a false doctrine which leads to another false doctrine -- forensic justification. It is I who start with scripture -- the literal rendering -- and then show how this view is upheld in the earliest churches, Eastern Christianity, and the Anabaptists; you, on the other hand, interpret through the lenses of the Magistetrial Reformers and thus cannot help but coming up with the wrong view.

 

I am used to it; that's all he and some others can do.

 

How do the Catholics explain the practice of baptising infants in light of Matt 28:18-20?

 

My faith is in God.

Who said the demons were saved?

How do you bring Nero into this discussion?

I see you have a hard time understanding.

Let me try again. I love to tell you.

James says faith without action is dead.

Do you get that?

You teach such faith is a saving faith.

How do you not see the error in that?

You teach the dead faith James tells us about is a saving faith.

James says even the demons believe and shudder. Shuddering is an action that the demons do.

Even the demons believe and have an action.

YOU teach that we are NOT to obey, that we are not to have any action on our part, and you say to believe otherwise is a false teaching worthy of condemnation.

Do you get it now?