Featured The Blessedness - Romans 4:6-8

Biblicist reposted the OP, and made the false claim that no one answered it. I love being able to show my answer again about God's Truth.

There is a chance that what I explained will be understood better, and the chance that more people will hear the truth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Biblicist
Rom. 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

My Bible translation uses the words “credited as righteousness.” Whether or not you use the translation that says ‘imputed’ or “credited” it is clear this is about God declaring someone being righteous without works.

Who are the people whom God will credit righteousness without works? Those people are the ones who will believe in Jesus, it is about the New Covenant. This is for all people who believe in Jesus.

Now, what does David mean “without” works? The Jews had the works of the law. God nailed these works to the cross. What works did God nail to the cross? God nailed sin offerings to the cross. God nailed burnt offerings to the cross. God nailed observance of special days to the cross. God nailed various external washings to the cross. God nailed circumcision of the flesh to the cross. God nailed all these WORKS that the Jews had to do JUST TO WORSHIP God, the Jews had to do all those works because of sin.

Did God nail obeying Him to the cross? Of course, not, we still have to obey God. Did God nail stop sinning to the cross? Of course, not, we still are not to sin. Did God nail doing good to the cross? Of course, not, we still are to do good.

God nailed the works to the cross that we no longer have to do just to worship God.


Quote:
Originally Posted by The Biblicist
Abraham is being used to illustrate Paul's doctrine of justification by faith without works.

1. Abraham lived 430 years before Moses and the Old Covenant Law
2. Abraham's "works" cannot be construed to be of the Old Covenant

Abraham had to be circumcised, as did his sons and all the males in his household. The scriptures even speak about BEFORE ABRAHAM AND CIRCUMCISION. In Romans Paul says in Romans 4:10, “Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before?
Right there that should tell you it IS about the work of circumcision.

Circumcision is definitely the Work spoken of in the explanation of Abraham and works. The fact that Abraham lived so long before the Law of Moses, this shows too what the works are, the works of the law like sin offerings. Circumcision was also in the Law of Moses.
Surely, you are not arguing that Abraham was allowed to be sinful and live a life of wickedness are you? With your beliefs and explanations, you claim that Abraham was considered righteous for believing while he lived a sinful wicked life. You ARE claiming that obeying in anything is a work. Wisdom proves you wrong about your doctrines, for Abraham was not allowed to live any kind of way and still be considered righteous apart from works. People falsely call obeying God in anything a work, but that is not so, for Abraham obeyed God from the beginning, and before circumcision and before the Law of Moses.
Did Abraham live a wicked life before circumcision and the Law of Moses? NO.


Quote:
Originally Posted by The Biblicist
3. Abraham was the "father of circumcision" and therefore what role does circumcision play in justification by faith.

The subject is Justification and two requiresments must be met for the "ungodly" to be justified before God:

Please only use God’s words. Do not use one of your teacher’s words or your own words. Where does the Bible say, “The subject is Justification and two requirements must be met for the “ungodly” to be justified before God”?


Quote:
Originally Posted by The Biblicist
1. Imputed righteousness - v. 6

Imputed, or credited righteousness is the fact that someone has faith, that someone believes.



Quote:
Originally Posted by The Biblicist
2. Forgiveness of sins - vv. 7-8

God gives forgiveness of sins to those who believe.


Quote:
Originally Posted by The Biblicist
Again, Catholic Church Catechism makes it very clear that circumcision plays the same sacramental role under the Old Covenant that baptism does under the New Covenant and they argue that point using Colossians 2:12.

"Jesus' circumcision, on the eighth day after his birth, IS THE SIGN of his incorporation into Abraham's descendants, into THE PEOPLE OF THE COVENANT. It is THE SIGN of his submission to THE LAW and his deputation to Israel's worship, in which he will participate through his life. THIS SIGN PREFIGURES that 'circumcision of Christ' WHICH IS BAPTISM." - #527 Catholic Church Catechism, 2nd Edition, p. 133

"CIRCUMCISION: The rite prescribed in Judaism and other cultures which involves the cutting off the foreskin of a male. Circumcision was a SIGN OF THE COVENANT between God and his people Israel and PREFIGURED THE RITE OF CHRISTIAN INITIATION IN BAPTISM. " - Glossary, Catholic Church Catechism, 2nd Edition, p. 871

"SIGNS OF THE COVENANT. The Chosen People received from God distinctive SIGNS and SYMBOLS tht marked its liturgical life. These are no longer solely celebrations of cosmic cycles and social gestures, but SIGNS OF THE COVENANT, SYMBOLS of God's mighty deeds for his people. Among these liturgical SIGNS FROM THE OLD COVENANT are CIRCUMCISION, anointing and consecration of kings and priests, laying on of hands, sacrifices, and above all the Passover. The Church SEES IN THESE SIGNS A PREFIGURING OF THE SACRAMENTS OF THE NEW COVENANT." - #1150, Catholic Church Cathechism, 2nd Edition, p. 297

Therefore, if we replaced the words "circumcised" and "circumcision" with any of the New Testament SIGNS and SYMBOLS in Romans 4:9-12 we would have the Apostles view of the Roman Catholic application of such signs in regard to justification by faith:
is a clear and explicit absolute rejection of the very foundation upon which Roman Catholic Sacramentalism is built and defined by the Apostle Paul.

It is clear that Catholics and those from the reformed group have false beliefs concerning works.

 

You are the one who is trying to say circumcision is not the work referred to in the passage.

I have shown you that obeying God is not the work, but that CIRCUMCISION and the Law of Moses ARE the work spoken of, for that is what the scriptures say.

Abraham was justified before the WORK of circumcision, NOT BEFORE he ever obeyed in any way, for the Bible tells us that Abraham OBEYED AND WENT where God said to go, and this was BEFORE circumcision.

Hebrews 11:8 By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going.

You keep insisting that we are not to obey God in any way before we are saved; you teach it is impossible to obey God in any way before we are saved, and you teach it is a belief worthy of condemnation.

The scriptures tell us that circumcision is a work. The scriptures tell us that Abraham’s faith and actions worked together.

The scriptures clearly and plainly tell us that faith without actions is dead and that ABRAHAM'S actions worked TOGETHER with his faith.

Hebrews 11:8 By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going.

James 2:22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.

Apostle James says that faith without action is dead; but according to you, that dead faith is actually the saving kind of faith. According to you, faith with action is the accursed kind of faith. How you do not see the error in that teaching is beyond me.

You are adding things again, saying that I say things that I do not. Where did I say Abraham was not justified before circumcision? I have been telling you repeatedly that circumcision is a work and Abraham was credited with righteousness before that.

Jews are the ones who had to circumcise.

Jesus did not yet die on the cross during the time of Abraham, so why do you say it had nothing to do with Abraham’s own obedience but the obedience of Christ? Faith in the blood of Jesus saves, the blood Jesus Christ SHED ON THE CROSS, as Colossians 1:20 says.

Colossians 1:20
and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

 

Your confusion is evident.
I have been telling you all along that circumcision is a work and that Abraham was justified before circumcision.

Abraham was justified before the works of circumcision, and the Law of Moses INCLUDED circumcision.
The scriptures tell us what is and is not considered works. Works are circumcision. BEFORE circumcision, Abraham OBEYED GOD, James says his faith and actions worked together, as when Abraham went where God said to go, before circumcision. Faith without any action is dead, and it is NOT a saving faith.

What you say is not true, for PAUL HIMSELF says that BY FAITH Abraham OBEYED God and went where God told him to go, THIS WAS BEFORE CIRCUMCISION.

Are you pretending that Abraham did not believe with any action, when that is what Paul and James says?
Even in having faith about Sarah, being with child, there were actions included. The scriptures say Abraham AGAINST ALL HOPE believed. The scriptures say Abraham believed WITHOUT WEAKENING, WITHOUT WAVERING. Those are actions. You do not even understand what Paul is trying to explain, yet the truth still shines through. In fact, if someone hears the gospel, they should believe without doubt, and without wavering in unbelief. Oh how I love the Word of God.

 

Wow, what a breakdown. Anyone who can see can see the complete breakdown of Biblist and his teachings.

Fear God.

 

I know what faith is; you don't. Therefore you have a hard time believing.
I brought "Nero" into this discussion for an example. You still don't understand. You have a hard time understanding what faith it. You don't seem to grasp what faith is.

You can't talk about the Word of God unless you know what the Word of God is, and you can't talk about faith unless you know what faith is. This discussion has centered around faith, not the Word of God. Haven't you noticed that yet??

I ask you again: Do you believe; do you have faith that Nero existed at the time of the Apostle Paul? Do you have faith/believe that he was an actual historical person? Can you answer such simple questions.

Yes, I did, and for good reason. My example demonstrates that you don't know what faith is. That is why you refuse to answer: "Do you believe or have faith that Nero existed as a man during the time of the Apostle Paul?

Apparently you don't know what I claim or teach. Faith is faith is faith, and you don't have a clue what faith is. James is teaching Christians that faith produces works. But he is teaching believers in Christ. The unsaved is not a believer in Christ, and does not have Christ as the object of his faith. A demon can do a good work too. But the object of his faith is not Christ, it is Satan. But the obedience and good works of the demon will not save him. You think demons can be saved simply because they have faith and good works. That is your formula for salvation. But it is heresy. The object of their faith must be Christ, or the faith is a misplaced faith, but it is still faith.

You can tell me what you think faith is, but by your posts I already know that you don't know what it is.

James is writing exclusively to Christians, those that are already saved. He calls them his brethren. Their works are a result or a consequence of their faith. James said:
"Show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show you my faith by my works."
A Christian's faith is demonstrated by his works. That is the whole point of the second chapter of James. But you don't get it.

You have a heretical teaching. I quoted you Scripture after Scripture which teaches that salvation is by faith alone. Faith is not obedience, and therefore not a work. Salvation is not by works, and therefore you teach salvation is by works for you teach it is by obedience. What other things besides faith do you add to the gospel, which Paul calls accursed, that are requirements to be saved. Please name them so that we all can be saved. Most of us are saved only by faith and faith alone. Now that you have declared us all unsaved, you must tell us the works of obedience we must do in order to be saved, so that we can "be saved all over again." Isn't this right, according to you?
I did not obey; I simply trusted Christ. That is not obedience; it is faith.
Otherwise faith is a work and salvation is by works.

The ludicrousness of your teaching? Yes!
Salvation is not of works as you keep asserting. That is heresy.

You just said it in the above statements.
You said it in previous statements below:

You teach a false gospel, which Paul says is accursed.

 

God freely declares a sinner to be JUST/EXACTLY as pure and innocent in his sight as regards to his sins/tresgressions as jesus Himself is!

same way jesus perfectly kept the law, in same fashion, God sees us keeping it same way, in regards to being justifed before Him!

 

Keep your personal opinions and attacks of me to yourself.

I do not want your man reasoning and wisdom, so please stop using it in debates. I only want God’s wisdom. Do not tell me I do not understand faith because of your human effort of using Nero.

I discuss the scriptures. Please stop with the nonsense arguing about what you think of me personally.

Again, I am not going to use what you think of Nero as an explanation to the word of God.

Apostle James is teaching Abraham’s faith and action worked together, where as YOU and others here say he ONLY believed and did NOTHING.

Apostle James is preaching the truth.

Do you really think you can say anything and others will believe you?

Do you really think that you can make up something about me and it is okay to do?

Where have I ever said demons can be saved?

I get it, just because I do not agree does not mean I do not get it.

James says faith without action is dead. You say that is a teaching for Christians. I say a person becoming a Christian should not be taught faith with an action is heresy, as you teach! Apostle James say faith without action is dead, but you call it a saving faith!

No, you do.

Faith without the works of the law like circumcision, this is where you misunderstand Paul. Paul even explains that before Abraham was circumcised he had OBEYED BY FAITH, see Hebrews 8:11, and 17.

I never even got into whether or not faith is a work.

Jesus gives the Holy Spirit to those who obey him, see John 14:23 and Acts 5:32. God does not even know you unless you obey Him see 1 Corinthians 8:3.

John 9:31 We know that God does not listen to sinners. He listens to the godly man who does his will.

Job 35:13 Indeed, God does not listen to their empty plea; the Almighty pays no attention to it.

Psalm 66:18 If I had cherished sin in my heart, the Lord would not have listened;

Psalm 145:19 He fulfills the desires of those who fear him; he hears their cry and saves them.

Proverbs 28:9 If anyone turns a deaf ear to the law, even his prayers are detestable.

I ask you many times for you to tell me how God saved you if He does not even know you unless you obey. Please explain that to me. I keep asking you and asking you.
1 Corinthians 8:3 But the man who loves God is known by God.
We do not love God unless we obey God, see John 14:23.

Please tell me, DHK, how are you all saved if God does not know you?

I can tell you how to know Jesus. I can tell you what to do for Jesus to reveal himself to you. That is all I am trying to get across to anyone who will listen. Why do you hate me for trying to show others how to know God?

If a person finds that while they think they are worshiping God, that they are in error, repent of it, and you will be blessed. I did, and Jesus blessed me in such a way that I could never have imagined.

 

There was no personal attack. Based on observation of your posts it was a statement of fact. You don't know what "faith" is. That is fact. If you want to refute it you would at least give an attempt to give a definition, but instead you complain. LOL

Proverbs 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.

You despise instruction. I was teaching you about faith. You despise instruction.
Nevertheless for your sake I will give you a Biblical example.

Isaiah 6:1 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.
Do you have faith that King Uzziah was a king during the time that Isaiah lived. Do you believe and have faith that this man actually lived and died during the lifetime of Isaiah?

It doesn't matter what I think of you; it matters what you believe vs. what the Bible says you ought to believe. The Bible says much about faith which you remain clueless about.

Then I will ask you about Uzziah instead. Or is that too hard for you:

I ask you again: Do you believe; do you have faith that Uzziah existed at the time of the Isaiah? Do you have faith/believe that he was an actual historical person? Can you answer such simple questions.

You err. That is not what I said. I said that he is teaching Christians. You demonstrate that you do not know what faith is.

I agree, and it is a truth you do not understand.

That is funny coming from you since you have already named people that do agree with me. :laugh:

Where did I make thinks up about you?
It is a conclusion I drew from what you posted. You keep referring to demons. They believe and do works (as you define works--shudder), the two things you say are required for salvation. Thus according to your requirements they meed the qualifications for salvation. Correct?

1. James is teaching Christians only. Demonstrate from the text that he is not teaching Christians.
2. Faith in Christ saves. This is what the Bible teaches. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved. Are you a Calvinist, or perhaps one of a different cult? Believe in Charles Taze Russel and be saved? What is the problem here?

The abundance of Scripture teaches that salvation is by faith alone. Heb.8:11 has nothing to do with your teaching.
You are willing to say that a NT given to an unsaved person in Africa who has never heard of Christ, much less of Moses and the law, would have to understand circumcision and things pertaining to the Mosaic law before he can get saved. That is ludicrous.
Salvation is by grace through faith, not of works (good works). And that is how that African would understand that verse. He would know nothing of circumcision or Mosaic Law. But he would know by the gospel that it is Jesus and Jesus alone that saves. Works cannot save. Good works cannot save. He doesn't know anything of the Mosaic law. And yet you would impose this restriction upon him before he can get saved!!!!!!! This is ridiculous.

Every time you state that salvation is by obedience you are stating that faith is a work, for the Bible states that salvation is by faith alone. What other conclusion can one come to?

That is not what Jesus teaches; you have made that up by taking Scriptures out of context. It is ludicrous for you to think that the omniscient God would not know anyone on this earth. He knows all things.

That is speaking of a saved person.

That is Job speaking of one of his "comforters."

A believer's prayer.

A prayer of a believer.

What does that have to do with faith and salvation?

I am saved through faith in Christ; not through obedience or by works.

These Scriptures are written to those that are already saved. You keep taking them out of context.

He knows me because I am his child. Are you? If so, why do you keep perverting the Scriptures?

1. I don't hate you; but I do detest many of the things that you post.
2. You believe in a salvation by works which is no salvation at all.

And that is your salvation testimony????

 

Just listen to all that personal attacking that you do. It makes it horrible just to read what you write and reply.

I really do not mind repeating things to you, for more people will have a chance to read the corrections.
Even the demons believe there is One God---and shudder. However, you say no human can have a reaction when they believe. Apostle James says faith without action is dead faith, yet you call it saving faith.

You need to demonstrate from the scriptures that it is a dead faith for a Christian but a saving faith for those wanting to be a Christian. I would really like to hear how that dead faith turns into saving faith.

Try not to keep personally attacking it clutters the debate, and it is wrong.
I have told you many times that I am not a Calvinist, and I have explained why.

Faith without works of the law is what is taught, not faith without sorrow for sins, not faith with anything is condemnation and heresy.

Show me one scripture that says what you teach, that to believe and be sorry for sins is not possible and is heresy.

Show me one warning from the Bible that says believe and do not be sorry or confess or you will be condemned.

The Bible says we are to search for God, but you say that is impossible and heresy.

I do not teach that, that is what you teach. You teach that an unsaved person in Africa who has never heard about the Law of Moses and works is to believe in Jesus, to believe in Jesus but do not feel or cry or shudder or do anything else, for to do so is a work and you will be condemned.

Salvation is to be saved.
I can give you many scriptures that tell us we must obey before being saved, and after being saved, though it should only take one to convince someone of God’s truth I can give you many.

You think it is ludicrous that Jesus says, “Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

Why do you not believe Jesus?

You want everyone to believe God does not listen to a saved person when they sin but listens to an unsaved person when they sin!

If you do not obey Jesus, then you are not saved, that is what the Bible says. So, how do you think that no obedience then got you saved? How do you think no obedience got you saved if not obeying means you are not saved?

You say those scriptures are about those already saved. Therefore, you want us to believe that there is a difference for a saved man and an unsaved man to hear those words. How would it make a difference, please explain.

Let us imagine both scenarios.

In the first scene, Jesus is speaking to a room full of unsaved people, and he says if you love me, you will do what I command.

In the second scene, Jesus is speaking to a room full of saved people, and he says if you love me, you will do what I command.

Now, tell us why it is error for Jesus to say that to the unsaved crowd.

You teach that Jesus cannot say to an unsaved crowd if they love him they will do what he says, but rather, if you want to be saved do not do what I tell you to do!

You did not answer the question. Jesus says the one who loves him is the one who obeys him, and that the Father and he will make their home with the one who loves them.

When the Father and Jesus make their home with a person that is their receiving the Holy Spirit.

However, you say we are not to obey in any way to be saved. Since that is your belief, tell me, why does Jesus say he will make his home with the one he knows, but you claim he makes his home with those who do not obey and therefore does not know him?

I only teach to obey Jesus, how you can hate that is beyond me. Oh and, you have in no way convinced me that you do not hate me, your fruits show different.