The bottom line is this:

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Daniel David, Mar 29, 2003.

  1. Daniel David

    Daniel David
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    who makes the final call as to who inherits life and who inherits wrath?

    For the calvinist (although there are many different shades), it is God and God alone.

    For the nonsovereigntist, it all depends upon sinful man's decision.

    Do all people agree with the above assessment?
     
  2. ScottEmerson

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    Quite untrue. you know where I stand - I'm just waiting for you to type in more of your words of spite.
     
  3. Daniel David

    Daniel David
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    I am talking about the final decision Scott. I wish, I wish I could just get one straight answer. :rolleyes:
     
  4. ScottEmerson

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    You asked whether I agreed it was true or not. I thought it was untrue. I answered your question....

    But to go further:

    n reference to Divine Grace, I believe,

    1. It is a gratuitous affection by which God is kindly affected towards a miserable sinner, and according to which he, in the first place, gives his Son, "that whosoever believers in him might have eternal life," and, afterwards, he justifies him in Christ Jesus and for his sake, and adopts him into the right of sons, unto salvation.

    2. It is an infusion (both into the human understanding and into the will and affections,) of all those gifts of the Holy Spirit which appertain to the regeneration and renewing of man — such as faith, hope, charity, etc.; for, without these gracious gifts, man is not sufficient to think, will, or do any thing that is good.

    3. It is that perpetual assistance and continued aid of the Holy Spirit, according to which He acts upon and excites to good the man who has been already renewed, by infusing into him salutary cogitations, and by inspiring him with good desires, that he may thus actually will whatever is good; and according to which God may then will and work together with man, that man may perform whatever he wills.

    -----

    (From Arminius)

    Man could not choose if not for the divine Grace of God. So yes, salvation is 100% from God. What's your point?
     
  5. Daniel David

    Daniel David
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    For the sake of speeding up the process, I will have to type slower.

    Scott, in your theology, who makes the final decision. Just answer that one question.

    I do not wish to debate effectual call, an infusion of grace, or anything else that you might want to hijack this thread into.

    If you need further clarification, PM me.

    This is not meant as an insult. IMHBAO, you are trying to avoid the answer.
     
  6. ScottEmerson

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    You're on a roll with these ad hominems.

    God offers salvation to all. We each have the ability to choose for or against God. The Holy Spirit makes this possible. Does this answer your question?

    Another quote for you from Arminius:

    This is my opinion concerning the free-will of man: In his primitive condition as he came out of the hands of his creator, man was endowed with such a portion of knowledge, holiness and power, as enabled him to understand, esteem, consider, will, and to perform the true good, according to the commandment delivered to him. Yet none of these acts could he do, except through the assistance of Divine Grace. But in his lapsed and sinful state, man is not capable, of and by himself, either to think, to will, or to do that which is really good; but it is necessary for him to be regenerated and renewed in his intellect, affections or will, and in all his powers, by God in Christ through the Holy Spirit, that he may be qualified rightly to understand, esteem, consider, will, and perform whatever is truly good. When he is made a partaker of this regeneration or renovation, I consider that, since he is delivered from sin, he is capable of thinking, willing and doing that which is good, but yet not without the continued aids of Divine Grace.


    And my quote from Arminius was doing this? That's hijacking? From where does this come?

    I'm not avoiding anything. I am sorry you feel that way.

    And to close:

    Take away FREE WILL, and nothing will be left to be saved. Take away GRACE, and nothing will be left as the source of salvation. This work [of salvation] cannot be effected without two parties — one, from whom it may come: the other, to whom or in whom it may be wrought. God is the author of salvation. Free will is only capable of being saved. No one, except God, is able to bestow salvation; and nothing, except free will, is capable of receiving it." Bernardus, De Libero Arbit. et Gratia.
     
  7. Yelsew

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    How does one's name get written in the book of life?
     
  8. Frogman

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    This is sad since Adam destroyed free-will. Except the free-will that is meant is that of Christ the Son of God.

    Bro. dallas
     
  9. Yelsew

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    This is sad since Adam destroyed free-will. Except the free-will that is meant is that of Christ the Son of God.

    Bro. dallas
    </font>[/QUOTE]You've never proved this!
     
  10. Frogman

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    That is because you won't hear Scripture brother. I have nothing to prove. Man fell, man found himself naked before God, man made a covering of fig leaves with seams, God visits man and rejects the man made covering and provides skins of clothing for covering (atonement) provided through an innocent victim.

    Bro. Dallas
     
  11. Harald

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    The names of men don't get written in the book of life, God sovereignly wrote down some men's names in it before the foundation of the world, even in eternity. He did this not on the basis of any foreseen goodness or merit, such as foreseen repentance and/or faith in Christ, but purely out of His own will and good pleasure which was in Christ Jesus the eternal Son. It was a sovereign and unconditional fore-writing of names in Christ Jesus the covenant head of the election of grace. There was never a moment in which the names of God's elect were not in the Lamb's book of life. This bespeaks the fact of an eternal union of the Son of God and the chosen people of God. God has eternally loved them in His beloved Son.

    Harald
     
  12. Frogman

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    Amen.

    Bro. Dallas
     
  13. Yelsew

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    This is the statement that I say you've never proven!
     
  14. Frogman

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    This is the statement the Bible proves. There is no free-will in unregenerate man.

    Bro. Dallas
     
  15. William C

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    Can you point to any passage where faith is consider as a work? It seems to me that faith replaced the works of the law as seen in Roman 3:27-31. Why do you and other Calvinists assume that when someone believes that faith is required and it is up to man to exercise faith that we must believe in a salvation by works? Paul doesn't seem to see it that way, if he did it sure seems in all those times he mentions faith he would have explained that its not really our choice but its God's gift of grace only to the elect.

    Naw, that would be too easy, I'll just wait and allow Augustine and Calvin fill that in later [​IMG]

    By the way the scripture does threaten that these names could be erased, doesn't that throw a wrench in your doctrinal system?
     
  16. Daniel David

    Daniel David
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    No Bill, it doesn't. I would encourage you to stop making yourself a lightning rod for criticism because of your lack of ability to actually represent the other side or your lack of knowledge in the Scripture.

    Consider this, in the book of Exodus, God threatened to wipe out the Israelites and start over with Moses. Is this possible? No. God made the threat to move them to repentance. He had already covenanted with Abraham (unilaterally) to have a people through him. Also, the Messiah would be born through Judah. Moses was born of the Levitical tribe.
     
  17. Harald

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    Bill. I do not care much about Calvin or Augustine or what they may have said or believed. I do not call myself a Calvinist nor do I consider myself to be a Calvinist. I have no need for calling myself after a heretic. Calvin did believe some things aright, nevertheless I have seen some statements of his which makes me consider him a heretic. I think the same applies to Augustine the Romanist high churchian.

    I do not believe the Bible teaches the view which is often referred to as Arminian foreknowledge in theological debate. I believe God's foreknowledge as pertains to the sons of men has to do with previously knowing them in an intimate manner in eternity in His beloved Son, like I said purely because Himself willed to thus know them intimately in the Beloved. Somewhere He says to certain ones that with an everlasting love He has loved them, meaning His love for them is eternal and unchanging. This bespeaks the fact of eternal vital union. There is a prevailing pernicious heresy being perpetrated in our days, and has been in previous times as well among many brands of professors. I refer to the heresy which says union with Christ is established in time at the point of "saving faith" so called. On the contrary God's word teaches an eternal union between the Triune covenant God, Jehovah, and His chosen people, which union may be said to be deepened in stages. There is eternal union, mediatorial union, and I sometimes use the term organic union when referring to the impartation of the God-like nature to the elect in regeneration. I also think of experimental union with Christ by Spirit-wrought and -empowered faith. Other kinds of unions there may also be between Christ and His people, but all aspects of this union pertain to the eternal covenant of grace which was between the three persons of the Triune Godhead, and the beneficiaries of this covenant are the said people of God. Most who call themselves Calvinists today I fear deny some or many aspects of said union with God and the elect, therefore I want no part with them in their error.

    Harald
     
  18. ScottEmerson

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    Just a point. If God had wiped out everyone except Moses, the line would still have ended up coming through Abraham. And where do we see that the Messiah would come from Judah? is this before or after God makes this threat?
     
  19. Daniel David

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    Scott, did you read the part about a unilateral covenant with Abraham? In Hebrews, it says that God swore by himself because there was none greater than he. God would have sinned if he had wiped out the Israelites. Do you understand?
     
  20. Frogman

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    You must understand, these believe it was/is possible for God to have sinned. Or else He would not have been tempted in the flesh.

    Bro. Dallas
     

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