The CALL, Is there One Call to All or not

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Allan, Oct 21, 2006.

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  1. Allan

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    Myself and some others have deen discussing this on a seperate thread. Since it was nearing it's 30 page mark and was requested when continued elsewhere, I figured why not open it up and see what fishes get hooked on this worm.

    It started off with Logic in Calvinism - let us leave that for another thread. - for now.
    But what it came to was there are some things that are Postulated in the Calvinsti construct such as two calls where one is effectual and only for the elect and bringing the toward salvation and a second general call that is given but for no actual purpose since God expects NO results from it. Instead of the general call I call this second call the exact of opposite which is the [a] feeble call as it is supposed to do nothing but call to non-elect with insincerity as there is to be NO results from this call. - I am inaccurate, I am blessed to know there are those who will correct me (except for the terminolgy - feeble- it's mine! Mine I tell you, mine! hahahaha) :tongue3:

    Here is what I stated after one gave me Rom 8:28-30 to see the effectual call. This is from the thread by Webdog: Calvinist preachers, teachers theologins.
    Ok then:
    Let's take what you have a look at it. Rom 8:28 - ...them that love God...the Called..
    I understand this to be believers just as you do but were we differ is not so much the interpretation of its metaphorical usage as it is the postulation of differing "calls".
    Let me show you what I mean.
    First let us look at the Greek wording here: [τοις κλητοις] translates - the invited; and it is observed that it is a "metaphor" taken from inviting guests, or making them welcome to a feast. Called is not an improper translation but it means the same thing regarding the metaphorical usage. So how does this help establish my point.

    Well lets begin this way: you believe God only saves those He "Calls". Your answer is yes and no. (correct me here if Im wrong) Yes as to effectual and no as to the general. Please show me where there are two types of callings. Most specifically where God gives to other men another that is a feeble call. I use this word since it is the opposite of effectual and shows a complete ineptness in its usage - In other words God does something (general Call) without any purpose to it since He is not expecting any results from it.

    Now scripture tells here also:

    Note if you will "BE" called, so in other words "have been".
    You may say Allan you just answered you own question. Wait brother, just wait... Also in relation to the parable it is speaking of those whom God called to be laborers for Him. And when the Owner of the Vineyard asked why these men were standing around they stated, because no one has "hired - invited/called" us. But the question now is did ALL go, we see no they did not. Yet it was the same Call from the Master or God. Again this same phrase is used elsewhere, so before we get to set on what it means just yet, let us look at Mat 22 also.

    Look at the Wedding Feast:

    Where were those the Father (God) called and declared to be His guests. They went their own ways and did not come. They rejected it.
    God told the sevents to go find anyone they could and invite them TILL His house was filled. This parable ends the same way the other does concerning the Call being an invitation TO come.

    Now what about as you stated "THE CALLED". It is a good question and glad you asked. I will use this illistration to make the point.

    If you are invited to be the guest at the Bash of the Millennia (Christian of course ) as well as the 499 other Guests. The place is packed but you notice the ticket meter does not read near the designated 500 mark. But once the Bash begins the doors are locked and security takes their posts. Now the annoucer comes to the platform and says I would like to thank "THE Guests" tonight for coming. Now 500 people were offered to come but only those who acted upon the invitiation were Identified as THE GUESTS (The Called) but the others once those doors were closed, even though they have an invitation are rejected admittance because they did not act in accordance with the request made. For this story it is be here at a certain time, for God it is believe what I have said.

    Didn't Jesus CALL the 12 and one was not of them.

    The Called is simply an identifier of what HAS already happened with respect to the Gods calling (let us not add to scripture what is not there concerning effectual calling). However, no one can be there unless invited, right?

    And so on...

    Let us however go back to Rom 8 for a sec and finish it. I'm sure you will note 28 & 29 speak of us having confidence in the future due to a past action.

    Work together for good to them who are The Called. A key here is this piece; "...according to His purpose". How so, and what is that good? He DID foreknew, THEN He did predestinate THAT they (the Called) for the purpose of being conformed to the image of Jesus being the first born of many. We need to note that foreknow and predestinate as seperate actions being described here and foreknow, preceedes predestine. And why is this important, because it shows what predestination concerns - that it is not the action of election but the action of justification, sanctification, and glorification that we may be the image of Gods Son (this was/is His purpose FOR Calling not the call itself) as we see in the next verses. Remember that foreknew is before predestination and predestination is about conforming The Called - those who acted upon the invitiation. Now we see just how the conforming works within man according to Gods good pleasure.

    Now we see predestined looking from the action to the person with whom the action is relating and see that this person IS predestined but predestined not according to election, no but according to verse 29 "those whom He FOREKNEW..." Now my view here differs from some so listen closely here: (Foreknew is not FORESEE as all things with God before time was, was actually IN God as time present) God foreknew who would believe DUE to His knowing there would be a Fall, and a need for a Sacrificial Lamb slain AND that man if left to himself will not seek after God but the God Himself would have to be the initiator and propagator of Salvation. So God Knows who is to accept the OFFER of the Grace of salvition, due to His desire that none should perish and the very reason Jesus is the light that lighteth EVERY man that cometh into the WORLD. In others words God knows it is He who must call man to repent, and in this knowing He knows (Not foresees) who will beleive the offered Grace He extends that


    Clear as Mud??
     
  2. jne1611

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    I'll post my previous reply to this & then pick up on your argument. Then we can go from there, but right now, I have to get busy, so I'll post my prior post.
     
  3. jne1611

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    Feeble call, as you call it: Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen. Can be rejected as when the gospel is preached.
    Powerful call inclusive of only the elect: 1Co 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
    1Co 1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

    1Co 1:26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

    This "calling" - invitation is only to a few. I.E. "the chosen" - "elect", which is the drive of the context. I.E. "the foolish things, weak things, base things, despised things, etc.
     
  4. jne1611

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    Quote Allan: In other words God does something (general Call) without any purpose to it since He is not expecting any results from it. End Quote.

    God is not per-say, "expecting results" from His call from even the elect. Since He is the One who produces the results, then He knows what will be, for He will bring it to pass.
    As I have said, the general call, is general, because the elect are among the "world". It is a fact that the gospel preached to every creature will only be received or believed by the elect. The gospel is the means by which God calls His elect, but the Spirit applies with power the gospel to the elect.
     
    #4 jne1611, Oct 21, 2006
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  5. jne1611

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    I must also make the point concerning the sheep "elect".
    The salvation of God's elect is not the transference from being a goat to becoming a sheep. Notice this:

    Joh 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
    Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

    It has been pointed out by others that the "other sheep" are the gentiles. To this I agree, but that does not change the fact that these are not saved as yet when Christ makes this statement, & yet they are identified as his sheep - elect - given to him by the Father.
    And lest the argument be made, that this group is not a group identified, but is just a big glob not identified the Scripture says: Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them. Christ identifies a personal relationship & fellowship with his sheep. This has to take in individuals. For what is his flock "elect" but a group of individuals? In Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. He speaks this to individuals in the last day. I never knew you. These were not Christ's sheep. In eternity or time.

    Though in their sins, they are under the wrath of God, God's election of them in Christ has secured their salvation & the elect of God are saved from wrath. And classes them as Christ's flock even before their salvation.
     
    #5 jne1611, Oct 21, 2006
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  6. Brother Bob

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    jne;
    Get yourself a pen to write with and put down the crayons please:)
     
  7. Blammo

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    Questions:

    Why, if Christ died for pre-selected individuals, does God need to wait for them to believe? Why not just regenerate them all and be done with it?

    2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

    If the "any" in this verse is to be understood as "the elect", why the "longsuffering"? If the "any is "the elect", this verse has God patiently waiting for Himself to regenerate the elect so that none of them will perish. He is patiently waiting for them to "come to repentance" which they are not capable of doing until He regenerates them. This would make God longsuffering toward Himself. Would it not?
     
  8. jne1611

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    These are questions you should address to God Himself. All I am capable of showing is what Scripture says, not why God decided to do this or that. This is the whole problem. Can man be content to let God be God? You could just as soon ask, why did God let Satan become as he is, why did He permit the fall, why wait till Satan has damned so many to put him in hell, why create hell for to punish man for eternity? Why does God say He hates sin & then permit it to be? These are questions only answered in the wisdom of God. Not in our ability to explain them all. We must be willing to accept God as He makes His ways manifest.
     
    #8 jne1611, Oct 21, 2006
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  9. jne1611

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    Quote Blammo: This would make God longsuffering toward Himself. Would it not? End Quote.

    Answer, no. He is long suffering to usward. It is plain to see if you understand how God views us outside of Christ, that if He waits till the time appointed by Himself to save us, that is still long suffering, considering the fact He could have chosen to put us in hellfire.
    Why did he wait to send Christ? Why not send him before the law? Was God long suffering to Himself then or to the people? We should be content to believe the report & leave the difficult questions to God's wisdom & believe He knows what He is doing.
     
    #9 jne1611, Oct 21, 2006
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  10. Blammo

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    I was actually hoping you had some answers. Oh well.

    BTW, the questions I asked are not simple "why did God do that" questions, they are "if the verse means what the calvinists say it means, does it make any sense?" questions.
     
  11. jne1611

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    I think you know why I answered the way I did. Lets not play games. I could ask you, if God knows who will believe & who will not, why not save all the believers in one shot & take them all to heaven & be done with it. But God has chosen to wait. That is His business.
     
  12. Brother Bob

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    I wonder, what else is there left to say. I see now how Calvinist become so wrapped up in their belief. After being taught by the "hand picked Decrees", what else could they believe. I always said Calvinist read Roman and Eph and spend the rest of their time trying to make the rest of the whole bible line up with what they got out of Romans and Eph.;)
     
  13. jne1611

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    That's pretty good, considering the time you have spent trying to make the whole Bible square with what you think John 3:16 means.:thumbs:
     
  14. Brother Bob

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    I just use that one because you all have such a rough time with it and I enjoy watching you try:)
     
  15. jne1611

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    You have found no rough time here & you know it. I have no problem with that verse at all. But I am not filling up another thread telling you why. I am content this far to let you believe as you wish.:wavey:
     
  16. Jarthur001

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    Hello Allan,

    For a person that has spent the last few weeks saying to many people (Calvinist) hold to logic and/or theology and not the Bible, you just blow your idea with this long OP. :)

    logic?

    Theology? Allan...how could you??? :)

    Yes..we all do it. We cannot have our faith as we know it without theology.

    So lets look close....one passage at a time. 1st...what does Ed have to do with this passage as you posted the words above?
    I will even tell you before hand where I'm going with this. :)
    After we address Ed from your OP, we will link it to foreknow your key point. If foreknow (as you see it) falls, everything will fall. We shall see what happens.


    In Christ...James
     
  17. Brother Bob

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    good answer I guess;)

    I too have filled up pages refuting your answers and that is why the short statements. It seems we back to chapter one again.
     
    #17 Brother Bob, Oct 21, 2006
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  18. jne1611

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    No hard feelings.:tongue3:
     
  19. Blammo

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    I think you answered the question the way you did cause you don't have a good answer. Let me ask the question a different way:

    Is God patiently waiting for people to accept the gospel truth and obey it, or is He patiently waiting for Himself to regenerate the elect so they will believe cause He has saved them?
     
  20. jne1611

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    Since you put it that way. Both.:thumbs: An I did not answer your first way of reasoning because it would not serve any purpose to answer it or attempt to answer it.
    Let me show you why. We are presently awaiting the redemption of our bodies. Why not just redeem our bodies as soon as we believe? Making us incapable of sinning? Only God knows. Why ask?
     
    #20 jne1611, Oct 21, 2006
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