Myself and some others have deen discussing this on a seperate thread. Since it was nearing it's 30 page mark and was requested when continued elsewhere, I figured why not open it up and see what fishes get hooked on this worm. It started off with Logic in Calvinism - let us leave that for another thread. - for now. But what it came to was there are some things that are Postulated in the Calvinsti construct such as two calls where one is effectual and only for the elect and bringing the toward salvation and a second general call that is given but for no actual purpose since God expects NO results from it. Instead of the general call I call this second call the exact of opposite which is the [a] feeble call as it is supposed to do nothing but call to non-elect with insincerity as there is to be NO results from this call. - I am inaccurate, I am blessed to know there are those who will correct me (except for the terminolgy - feeble- it's mine! Mine I tell you, mine! hahahaha) :tongue3: Here is what I stated after one gave me Rom 8:28-30 to see the effectual call. This is from the thread by Webdog: Calvinist preachers, teachers theologins. Ok then: Let's take what you have a look at it. Rom 8:28 - ...them that love God...the Called.. I understand this to be believers just as you do but were we differ is not so much the interpretation of its metaphorical usage as it is the postulation of differing "calls". Let me show you what I mean. First let us look at the Greek wording here: [τοις κλητοις] translates - the invited; and it is observed that it is a "metaphor" taken from inviting guests, or making them welcome to a feast. Called is not an improper translation but it means the same thing regarding the metaphorical usage. So how does this help establish my point. Well lets begin this way: you believe God only saves those He "Calls". Your answer is yes and no. (correct me here if Im wrong) Yes as to effectual and no as to the general. Please show me where there are two types of callings. Most specifically where God gives to other men another that is a feeble call. I use this word since it is the opposite of effectual and shows a complete ineptness in its usage - In other words God does something (general Call) without any purpose to it since He is not expecting any results from it. Now scripture tells here also: Note if you will "BE" called, so in other words "have been". You may say Allan you just answered you own question. Wait brother, just wait... Also in relation to the parable it is speaking of those whom God called to be laborers for Him. And when the Owner of the Vineyard asked why these men were standing around they stated, because no one has "hired - invited/called" us. But the question now is did ALL go, we see no they did not. Yet it was the same Call from the Master or God. Again this same phrase is used elsewhere, so before we get to set on what it means just yet, let us look at Mat 22 also. Look at the Wedding Feast: Where were those the Father (God) called and declared to be His guests. They went their own ways and did not come. They rejected it. God told the sevents to go find anyone they could and invite them TILL His house was filled. This parable ends the same way the other does concerning the Call being an invitation TO come. Now what about as you stated "THE CALLED". It is a good question and glad you asked. I will use this illistration to make the point. If you are invited to be the guest at the Bash of the Millennia (Christian of course ) as well as the 499 other Guests. The place is packed but you notice the ticket meter does not read near the designated 500 mark. But once the Bash begins the doors are locked and security takes their posts. Now the annoucer comes to the platform and says I would like to thank "THE Guests" tonight for coming. Now 500 people were offered to come but only those who acted upon the invitiation were Identified as THE GUESTS (The Called) but the others once those doors were closed, even though they have an invitation are rejected admittance because they did not act in accordance with the request made. For this story it is be here at a certain time, for God it is believe what I have said. Didn't Jesus CALL the 12 and one was not of them. The Called is simply an identifier of what HAS already happened with respect to the Gods calling (let us not add to scripture what is not there concerning effectual calling). However, no one can be there unless invited, right? And so on... Let us however go back to Rom 8 for a sec and finish it. I'm sure you will note 28 & 29 speak of us having confidence in the future due to a past action. Work together for good to them who are The Called. A key here is this piece; "...according to His purpose". How so, and what is that good? He DID foreknew, THEN He did predestinate THAT they (the Called) for the purpose of being conformed to the image of Jesus being the first born of many. We need to note that foreknow and predestinate as seperate actions being described here and foreknow, preceedes predestine. And why is this important, because it shows what predestination concerns - that it is not the action of election but the action of justification, sanctification, and glorification that we may be the image of Gods Son (this was/is His purpose FOR Calling not the call itself) as we see in the next verses. Remember that foreknew is before predestination and predestination is about conforming The Called - those who acted upon the invitiation. Now we see just how the conforming works within man according to Gods good pleasure. Now we see predestined looking from the action to the person with whom the action is relating and see that this person IS predestined but predestined not according to election, no but according to verse 29 "those whom He FOREKNEW..." Now my view here differs from some so listen closely here: (Foreknew is not FORESEE as all things with God before time was, was actually IN God as time present) God foreknew who would believe DUE to His knowing there would be a Fall, and a need for a Sacrificial Lamb slain AND that man if left to himself will not seek after God but the God Himself would have to be the initiator and propagator of Salvation. So God Knows who is to accept the OFFER of the Grace of salvition, due to His desire that none should perish and the very reason Jesus is the light that lighteth EVERY man that cometh into the WORLD. In others words God knows it is He who must call man to repent, and in this knowing He knows (Not foresees) who will beleive the offered Grace He extends that Clear as Mud??