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Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Wes Outwest, May 26, 2005.
Is the debate over?
Nope. Been busy with other stuff... and you finally answered the question I had been after you one.
It wasn't a good answer nor a biblical one but it was an answer.
The basis for any logical debate is agreement that there is a Body of Truth. For Christians that Body of Truth is the Bible. When you deny the clear teaching of Scripture you remove the basis for any logical debate.
On other threads you have consistently denied the teaching of 1 Corinthians 2:14 which states:
KJV But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
NIV The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
NRSV Those who are unspiritual do not receive the gifts of God’s Spirit, for they are foolishness to them, and they are unable to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
You have also incorrectly argued that Scripture such as Romans 8:29, 30 and Ephesians 1:3-6 apply exclusively to the Apostles. You, in effect, splinter the teachings of Scripture to make man sovereign in Salvation.
Got bored with your arguments. You have been conclusively answered ad nauseum. Why continue to repeat myself?
what an asinine, thought that is, No matter what one says, quoting scripture, there is a counter argument with quotable scripture. I know you know that, because you use that tactic all the time.
You deny the truth because it does not fit into your doctrine.
WOW, I've been operating under the assumption that all who post here are spiritually discerning "man", who actually can discern things of the spirit. Obviously a misconception on my part since it appears there remains a wide diversity of understanding among us...many like yourself that reject the clear truth.
That is why Jesus said to Nicodemus,
"Dead-on" description of the average Calvinist.
Haven't spotted anything fresh from your side of the argument either!
There's nothing fresh to say. What we have been saying is 2000 years old, since it was first taught by Christ and his apostles and recorded for us in Scripture. How can it be fresh?
It is that same teaching that I too adhere to!
No it's not. Ours has been defended from Scripture and yours has been refuted from Scripture. Your teaching is not the same teaching we adhere to.
I accept and believe the 2000 year old scriptures that you take your doctrine from. None of what I believe from those scriptures has been refuted by your postings.
How can you claim to be spiritually discerning when you do not understand the distinction that the Apostle Paul is making in 1 Corinthians 2:14 between the natural man and the spiritual man?
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
The natural man is the unregenerate man, the spiritual man is the regenerate man.
Your refusal to understand this truth recalls a prophecy from Isaiah and quoted by both Jesus Christ and the Apostle Paul in reference to the Jews:
Isaiah 6:9, 10
9. And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
10. Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.
Since you refuse to understand this truth further discussion is pointless.
Your refusal to understand this truth recalls a prophecy from Isaiah and quoted by both Jesus Christ and the Apostle Paul in reference to the Jews:</font>[/QUOTE]
Amazing you you shoot yourself in the foot with scripture that you have attempted to shoot me down with. Just look at what Isaiah is saying "LEST THEY SEE WITH THIER EYES, AND HEAR THEIR EARS, AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART, AND CONVERT, AND BE HEALED." You see, Isaiah is agreeing with what I've been telling you. "UNLESS THEY SEE, HEAR, UNDERSTAND, AND CONVERT, AND BE HEALED". No "Preliminary regeneration" here.
Thanks for the scripture that supports my point of view!
You will not understand it but there is a difference between regeneration and conversion. However any attempt to explain further would be like casting pearls before swine.
such a view is necessitated by a false paradigm, since it is not in accordance with scripture that says that life comes in believing.
You have no pearls to cast!
such a view is necessitated by a false paradigm, since it is not in accordance with scripture that says that life comes in believing. </font>[/QUOTE]Paradigm is a fancy word but you apparently do not understand Scripture any better than WES. Ephesians 2:1-10 clearly teaches that God gives life to those who are dead in trespass and sin [That is called regeneration.] and next gives these who have been regenerated faith by which they can effectually respond to the Gospel using their God given faith [That is called conversion.].
The initial event in salvation is regeneration, the theological term synonymous with ‘rebirth’ or ‘being born again’. Regeneration is solely the work of God the Holy Spirit whereby those who are spiritually dead in trespass and sin are made spiritual alive and are brought into union with Jesus Christ. Whereas the unregenerate person has no disposition, interest, or desire for the things of God the regenerate person is a new creation and is now receptive to the ‘effectual call’ of the Holy Spirit.
Conversion is the result of conscious act of a regenerate person in which he responds to the ‘effectual call’ and turns to God in faith and repentance. Conversion is in reality an acknowledgment that one has experienced regeneration.
I recognize that those who believe their salvation lies within themselves will not accept the Biblical teaching that Salvation is solely the work of God but that is their problem.
And you have interpreted this passage out of Ephesians 2 1-10,
to be Regeneration. Even though regeneration is not spoken or even described here. The scripture does not establish a how or when this bringing us to life with Christ happens, only that it does happen.
Another thing you overlook, is that in humans it takes 9 months from conception to birth. It is not instantaneous as your description of regeneration implies it has to be. Anyone who claims instantaneous rebirth is being foolish with the scriptures. It takes a period of gestation for the word to be heard and believed. Nine months? who knows, for some it is relatively quick from the hearing to the believing, which is the biblical description of rebirth. For others, it may be years from the initial hearing to the being fully convinced stage. However long it takes, the result is the same, the human is saved by Jesus through the renewing faith in the spirit of the one being saved.
If you say it is by grace that we are saved, let me remind you that God has continuously and without fail, extended his Grace to man for over 2000 years, and in truth I believe from the very beginning, save for one time when he flooded the world. God's grace has been there for regenerate and unregenerate man ALL ALONG THE TIMELINE. And yes, it is all the same grace, because it is the same unchanging God!
If instantaneous regeneration were true, then virtually every man under God's grace would be regenerated. But it is not true, because God established His salvation of man on the basis of mans faith IN Him! A faith that God does not give to man in any other way than through the hearing of His word. I suspect that you do not understand that, because you have fallen for the Calvinist rhetoric that has no substantial support in scripture.
Maybe there is a difference in Calvinism, but this is not found anywhere an the entire Bible. Before you make such bold statements, why don't you Calvinists support your nonsense from the Word of God? I challenge any Calvinist to show from Scripture, that Regeneration and Conversion are not one and the same thing. I am not interested in your warped theological nonsense, but Biblical data.
What a complete load of "bull", Larry! Your position defended from Scripture? You live in dream world. It is Calvinism, and NOT Scripture that makes God insincere in His offer of the Gospel to to everyone without exception, since evenyone without exception was not provided for in the Atnement of Christ, which is a requirement for the offer to be sincere. It is Calvinism, and NOT Scripture that teaches that God perordained and willed the fall, and that the sinful actions of all human beings are "caused" by the Holy Spirit.
So, don't come out with this nonsense that what Calvinists believe, is what Scripture teaches, since this is NOT the case. You may have convinced yourself that this is the case, in which case you are sadly deluded.
And you have interpreted this passage out of Ephesians 2 1-10,
to be Regeneration. Even though regeneration is not spoken or even described here. The scripture does not establish a how or when this bringing us to life with Christ happens, only that it does happen. </font>[/QUOTE]Well Outwest, after 2492 posts, you got one thing correct. Ephesians 2:4 does describe regeneration: God even when we were dead in our sins, brought us to life with Christ. In the remainder of your post you are incorrect as usual.
Wes! Wes! Wes!
We are not discussing the conception and birth of children here. I suspect that most people on this Forum know that the gestation period for humans is 9 months. We are not talking about a human act. I realize that you make man sovereign in salvation but you are incorrect. God is sovereign in Salvation and regeneration is an act of God as clearly shown in the passage Ephesians 2:4. If I accepted the deluded logic in your argument above that would mean we could have what, people who were 10% saved and 90% lost, 50% saved and 50% lost, 90%saved and 10% lost or even 99.9 % saved and 0.1 % lost, and all possible combinations in between!!! What happens if these people die during this long torturous process? Do we have half saved people in heaven or a half of a saved person in heaven, or do we have to invent a purgatory where the salvation process can be completed?
Wes! Wes! Wes! Contrary to your misguided logic regenetation is instantaneous.
[However, since you don't believe in instantaneous regeneration because God is apparently impotent, what would you say is the gestation period for regeneration, 9 months, or more, or less? God created Adam on the 6th day. Does it take Him longer to regenerate a person? Just curious!]