The Campbellite Plan Of Redemption

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Mark Osgatharp, Nov 28, 2005.

  1. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp
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    KenH asked the following question in another thread:

    Ken,

    To start with, I never heard a Campbellite claim to be saved by any means. All the one's I ever heard comment on the matter frankly admitted they would not be saved till they held out faithful to the end. Baptism is only one step - the point at which God forgives past sins - on the Campbellite road to obtaining salvation.

    Last week I received a bulletin in the mail from the Campbellite church in Wynne. It has an article titled "God's Plan For Saving Man." Here is the exact words used:

    "God's Grace - Ephesians 2:8
    Christ's Blood - Romans 5:9
    The Holy Spirit's Gospel - Romans 1:16
    Sinner's Faith - Acts 16:31
    Sinner's Repentance - Luke 13:3
    Sinner's Confession - Romans 10:10
    Sinner's Baptism - I Peter 3:21
    Christian's Work - James 2:24
    Christian's Hope - Romans 8:24
    Christian's Endurance - Revelation 2:10"

    Now do you believe that a man who really believes all that is saved?

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  2. KenH

    KenH
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    Yes, I do.

    Of course, what you or I or anyone thinks about a person's salvation is irrelevant since none of us has a say in the matter.

    By the way, I have heard lots of Church of Christ members refer to themselves as saved.
     
  3. KenH

    KenH
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    Oops!

    **DOUBLE DOUBLE POST POST**
     
  4. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp
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    KenH,

    Whoever wrote, or believes, the above "Plan For Saving Man" cannot possibly believe that he is saved; the best he could say is that he is working on it.

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  5. KenH

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    I disagree, Mark. Being an ex-Church of Christ member I know that you are wrong in that statement.
     
  6. Mark Osgatharp

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    KenH,

    Explain to me how a man who thinks that he is not saved until he endures to the end can think he is saved? That is not even logical, much less Scriptural.

    I have never met a Campbellite who said that he knew he was going to heaven. And that isn't to say that there are not any, just that I never met one.

    I have, however, met many Pentecostals who said that they knew they were. Few things drive me up a wall more than to hear a man who believes in "falling from grace" claim that he knows he is going to heaven when he dies.

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  7. KenH

    KenH
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    1) Because he is saved at that moment when he is thinking.

    2) Okay. I am an ex-Church of Christ member and when I was a Church of Christ member I would have told you that I knew I was going to Heaven.

    3) I would suggest that you get out more often. :D
     
  8. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp
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  9. bmerr

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    Mark,

    bmerr here. I am a member of the church of Christ, (what you refer to as a Campbellite), and would be happy to help you understand my position, which is what KenH apparently used to hold to.

    Regarding salvation, there is an aspect of the "already", and the "not yet" for the Christian. Paul adresses the "not yet" part in 1 Cor 9:27, where he wrote,

    "But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway."

    Please notice that Paul was not concerned about his rewards, but "I myself". He goes on in 1 Cor 10 to illustrate his point by showing how Israel had all come out of Egypt, and shared the same spiritual meat and drink. However, Paul points out that "...with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness" (1 Cor 10:5).

    He goes on to warn them of specific sins such as idolatry, fornication, tempting Christ, and murmuring, all of which resulted in the Israelites being destroyed in one way or another (10:7-10).

    He then repeats the fact that these things were to serve as examples for Christians (see 10:6), and were meant to admonish us.

    Paul wraps it up with these words,

    "Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall."

    Question: Why would Paul warn of something that could not happen?

    What does a believer become if he stops believing? An unbeliever.

    So Paul was already saved out of the power of darkness, and had been translated into the kingdom of God's dear Son (Col 1:13), but he needed to exercise self control over his own passions and lusts so he would not end up as a castaway (1 Cor 9:27). He was still intent upon attaining unto the resurrection of the dead (Phil 3:11). He had not yet attained to it (Phil 3:12).

    I hope this helps. Hope to hear from you soon.

    In Christ,

    bmerr
     
  10. KenH

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    Being by nature an optimistic sort, I truly believed when I was a Church of Christ member that I would not to into apostasy. Then, again, even several years before I left the Church of Christ by reading a portion of Charles Stanley's book on eternal security I became convinced of the correctness of the doctrine of the preservation of the saints.
     
  11. Mark Osgatharp

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    KenH,

    Sounds to me like you went from trusting in positive thinking and your own self to trusting in Christ. Thank God for that.

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  12. Mark Osgatharp

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    Bemerr,

    Indeed, Paul warns about the possibility of backsliding and apostacy. But I would contend that no where does the Bible assert that a backslider will go to hell; to the contrary, the Bible (I Corinthians chapter 11 and Hebrews chapter 12 for example) plainly asserts that backsliding believers do not receive the same punishment as do total unbelievers.

    Anyone who thinks that a truly forgiven (I would say regenerate, but I know you people don't believe in regeneration) person can so backslide so as to go to hell cannot possibly think that he is in any sense of the term "saved" from the damnation of hell and therefore cannot in any sense of the term "know" that he has eternal life.

    In your way of thinking, every moment of your life you stand in jeapordy of hell fire and eternal torment. There is no escaping that plain hard reality.

    Pity the man who lives with that fear.

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  13. bmerr

    bmerr
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    Mark,

    bmerr here. This comment,

    prompts me to ask, "Does your Heb 12 read the same as mine?" You seem to have a very different understanding of it than I do. Not that I'm right and you're wrong, necessarily, but I'm not sure of how you use the text to uphold OSAS.

    Also, there are other texts that show your comment to be true, but not how you may think.

    2 Pet 2:18-22 shows that those who leave Christ to return to the lusts of the world are punished more severly than those who never come to Christ at all.

    2 Pet 3:17 is another. For lack of time, I'll let you look them up on your own. Talk to you later.

    In Christ,

    bmerr
     
  14. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp
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    bmerr,

    Hebrews chapter 12 speaks of the loving chastisment of a son by a father for the son's ultimate good. That is quite a contrast from vengeance of eternal damnation of an enemy by a despot.

    I ask you, are you God's child or are you one of his enemies?

    I Corinthians 11 is as crystal clear and should forever dispell the "falling from grace" heresy - "when we are judged we are chastened of the Lord that we should not be condemned with the world." This is all the more cogent when you consider that the "chastisement" meted out to some of the Corinthians was literal death.

    As for the references from Peter, they do speak about the awfulness of backsliding; they do not say anything about a backslider being damned to hell.

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  15. bmerr

    bmerr
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    Mark,

    bmerr here. 2 Pet 2:20-21 reads,

    "For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are then entangled therein and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have know the way of righteousness, than after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment given unto them."

    What is the end of a person who never knows Christ? Is it not eternal punishment in hell?

    The text states quite clearly that if one escapes the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of Christ, and then is overcome in them again, the end is worse than it would have been if they had not known Christ. What other options are there but more severe punishment in hell?

    If the person in question went to heaven, but lost his rewards (as some may want to argue), it would still be better than being in hell forever, would it not?

    Concerning 1 Cor 11, did you miss the part about eating and drinking damnation to one's self? In Christ there is no condemnation (Rom 8:1) for those who walk after the Spirit, and not after the flesh. What about those in Christ who choose to walk after the flesh? Don't say it's not possible.

    Ever hear of Demas? Once spoken of by Paul alongside of Luke the beloved physician (Col 4:14), but later on, Paul reports to Timothy that, "Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica" (2 tim 4:10). What do you suppose his latter end will be?

    And the words about chastisement of the Lord in Heb 12 precede an exhortation about

    15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of (fall from - marg.) the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;

    16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.

    17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

    God's refusal to reward unfaithfulness with eternity in Heaven does not make Him a despot.

    In Christ,

    bmerr
     
  16. Mark Osgatharp

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    Your question is based on the assumption that Peter is addressing the eternal state of the backslider. He is not. He simply says that a man who backslides is worse than a man who never knew the way of righteousness.

    No, I didn't. Did you miss the part about believers being condemned and chastened, but not being "condemned with the world"?

    For the record, there is no difference between the meaning of the words "condemned" and "damned." Though we most often use the word "damned" to mean "damned to hell", the Bible simply uses it to mean "judged" and there is no doubt that believers will be judged for their sins, but not "condemned with the world."

    Assuming that he never repented of his love of the world, he will be numberd among the believers who will be ashamed before the Lord at His coming. He will not, however, be cast into hell; that fate is reserved for the unregenerate.

    The blessing Esau lost was his birthright, not eternal life. Why must you find "hell" in every Scripture? Is there no chastisement for God to render short of eternal blazes?

    To which I say:

    a. I never said God rewards unfaithfulness with eternity in heaven. That is just one of your Campbellite ruses.

    I said God punishes unfaithfullness in His children as a loving father, not with damnation in hell as a despot taking vengeance on an enemy.

    b. Damning people to hell - as God most certainly will damn the wicked - does make Him a despot; not in a negative or bad sense of the term, but in the pure use of the term as an absolute ruler and dictator over His creatures.

    c. I notice you did not address the fact that Hebrews 12 speaks of God chastening His children in love for their ultimate benefit. How you can get damnation to hell out of that is beyond my comprehension.

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  17. bmerr

    bmerr
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    Mark,

    bmerr here. The text says that "the latter end is worse with them than the beginning."

    There is a distinction made between the "latter end" and the person ("them").

    Peter is not saying this person will be a worse person, he is saying that this persons' "latter end" will be worse.

    How can this be speaking of anything but his eternal abode?

    No, I saw that, too. The text says that "...we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world."

    There is a distinction here between the chastening of the Lord and the condemnation of the world. The reason for the Lords' chastening of us is to bring us to repentance, thus avoiding being condemned with the world.

    Could it be that in 11:30 we have both the chastened, and the unrepentant (weak and sickly vs. sleep)?

    For the Christian who walks in the light as he is in the light (1 John 1:7), there is no judgement for sin, for the blood of Jesus Christ cleanseth such a one from all sin.

    Just as it is written in Rom 8:1, "There is therefore now no condemnation [damnation/judgement] to them which are in Christ Jesus [Christians], who walk not after the flesh [in sin], but after the Spirit [in the light]."

    So his latter end will be worse than if he had never known the way of righteousness, right?

    Which would have been his end had he not known the way of righteousness, but now his latter end is worse. How do you reconcile that?


    Mark, what is the Christian's birthrite? Esau, it's true, sold his earthly birthrite for a cup-o-soup, not necessarily his eternal life. But the Hebrew writer uses Esau as an example by which to warn his Christian audience not to fall into fornication, or profanity, lest they should sell their Christian birthrite for the proverbial "cup-o-soup".

    So I ask you, what does the Christian stand to inherit? What is the Christian's birthrite?

    First, by saying the unfaithful Christian will not go to hell, you imply that the unfaithful Christian will go to heaven. This is the same as saying that God rewards unfaithfulness with heaven.

    Second, I'm not a Campbellite, and I'm employing no ruse. I am a Christian, nothing more and nothing less. I don't know why you insist on using names other than those used by the Bible. It must be a denominational thing...

    In 1 John 2:15, it is written,

    "Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him."

    Paul says in 2 Tim 4:10, "for Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world..."

    In James 4:4 it is written,

    "Ye adulterers and adulteressess, know ye not that friendship with the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God."

    Demas loved the world. He was the enemy of God, though he had been faithful before. God's vengeance on Demas would be as to an enemy who had once sworn by the blood of Christ (by obedience to the gospel) to be a friend. He would execute vengeance upon one who had betrayed his covenant with His Son.

    I can go with that.

    Right, God chastens us as a loving father, and this precedes an exhortation to endure so as not to be like Esau and sell your Christian birthrite.

    In Christ,

    bmerr
     
  18. Mark Osgatharp

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    Again I ask, why must you find hell in every Scriptural warning? If you really loved righteousness you would understand that the mere fact of being a worse person than you were is bad enough within itself.

    The text says that the chastening was to sickness and death, and yet "not condemned with the world." No statement in the Bible is any more fatal to the "falling from grace" heresy.

    True, but we aren't talking about a Christian who walks in the light; we are talking about a Christian who backslides into darkness.

    The Christian's birthright is a clean slate, a the fellowship of the saints, restored self-respect, peace of heart and mind, God's guidance through life, eternal reward, and, most important of all, the ability to live a life pleasing to the Lord.

    A Christian can lose these things through backsliding, but he cannot himself be eternally lost. As Paul said,

    "he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire."

    This is another of those statements absolutely fatal to the "falling from grace" heresy.

    What twisted reasoning! Yes, unfaithful Christians will go to heaven, and maybe a lot quicker than faithful ones.

    That does not mean God rewards unfaithfulness with heaven. It means He keeps His promise and keeps His people, whether we are faithful or not. As Paul says,

    "If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful; He cannot deny Himself."

    Your movement and your doctrines were invented by Alexander Campbell so you are, therefore, a Campbellite. I can't use a Bible name for Campbellism because there was no such thing as Campbellism in Bible times.

    However, the Bible does use the names of men who founded movements to indentify those movements - such as the followers of Baalam and the Nicolaitans. Therefore it is perfectly within Biblical guidlines to call you a Campbellite.

    Campbellism is every bit as much a denomination as any other movement. That is just another Campbellite ruse; no different than the Holy Rollers who claim to be "non-denominational".

    This shows you have no idea what it means to believe on the Lord and be born again. Being born again does not come by swearing to do anything. It comes merely by trusting the Lord to do it.

    Until you accept this simple fact you can't possibly understand eternal security. In fact, there is no eternal security in what you believe because you are not eternally secure until you trust Christ to secure your eternity.

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  19. bmerr

    bmerr
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    Mark,

    bmerr here. If you can tell me one thing I've been taught that originated during the lifetime of Alexander Campbell, I'll give you $100.00. I will gladly give you book, chapter, and verse for every point of doctrine I speak of.

    The church of Christ is not "non-denominational", she is anti-denominational, being opposed to "...them which cause divisions and offenses contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned..." (Rom 16:17). Jesus didn't build a division, which is what a denomination is.

    Just briefly, you are misusing 1 Cor 3:15. If "he himself" means every Christian, then what was Paul worried about when he said , "...lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway" (1 Cor 9:27)? He wasn't concerned with his rewards, he was concerned for himself.

    Gotta run.

    In Christ,

    bmerr
     
  20. Mark Osgatharp

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    The various things Alexander Campbell taught may have been taught by various others before him, albeit with different emphasis, but he is the one who put them all together and started the movement of which you are a part.

    He claimed to have restored Christianity to the earth. He even once made the statement that the kingdom of God was hidden among the Baptists till he came and called it out. He was a restorationist every bit as much as Joseph Smith, which is why even your own people refer to the Campbell/Stone movement and "the restoration."

    It is, therefore, perfectly logical and reasonable to identify you as Campbellites, especially considering that your doctrines are foreign to the Bible and your movement is 1800+ years too late to be the movement started by Jesus Christ.

    Of course Jesus didn't set up divisions. He set up one kingdom, commited it's administration to His churches, and commanded every man in the world to join it and it was not the kingdom set up by Alexander Campbell.

    All of that notwithstanding, from the perspective of the world the Lord's churches do constitutute a division, for the are separate and distinct from the organizations created by men. That is why Paul freely confessed that,

    "after the way they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets."

    He was concerned that he would be castaway from the service of God, which, as the context shows, is what he was talking about. Again I ask, why must your find eternal damnation under every stone?

    Mark Osgatharp
     

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