I am opening up this new thread on Romans 8:7 because I don't believe the characterization of the "carnal mind" in Romans 8:7 was sufficiently dealt with. So this OP is focused strictly upon the characterization of the "carnal mind" as presented in Romans 8:7 and applied to Romans 8:8 to the lost condition. The Greek word translated "carnal mind" is a noun. As many of you know in the Greek nouns and adjectives have no tense but cases. James suggested that my treatment on this noun was incorrect because to him it suggested that I was implying a tense, such as the Aorist tense. Of course, I never said or suggested a Greek noun had any tense. I explicitly referred to its MEANING "the carnal mind set" which infers a direction of the will towards something. In context, the fallen nature overpowered the will of Paul when he acted in his own strength: For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. Thus it is indwelling sin that overpower his will to do good and instead of good produces evil. This is the "carnal" mindset described in the rest of Romans 8:7. It is described by the words "enmity" which is a state of war or an active assault upon God. It is described as an active state of resistance to the revealed will of God (law) in the words "is not subject to the law of God." These are acts of the will under the power of indwelling sin. Thus a "carnal" "mind set" or the will in action against God. In addition, this MIND SET of indwelling sin/fallen nature has no ability to respond any other way - "indeed neither indeed can be" in regard to its resistance to the revealed will of God (not subject to the law of God). Now it is this "mindset" that Paul immediately applies directly to the lost man in verse 8 to explain why they "cannot" please God. Again the word "cannot" denies ability to please God. Thus total inability to please God and the characterization of this mindset in Romans 8:7 demands that as this would be impossible for that kind of mindset. Now some have suggested that this "mindset" of the fallen nature is merely an option of the lost man rather than his total condition. However, that is impossible as Paul claims that in the regenerated man ("in the Spirit") the only option they have to overcome it cannot be found anywhere else but "in the Spirit" and under the power of the indwelling Spirit (Rom. 8:9-13). In other words, the regenerated man has no other option available but through the indwelling Spirit to defeat the power of indwelling sin. Hence, the unregenerated man according to some of our opponents has more options to deal with this "mind set' than the saved man has if this mind set is only one option that he can overcome without being regenerated and without the power of the indwelling Spirit. How is it possible that the unregenerated state is capable of overcoming this carnal mindset described in Romans 8:7-8 without regeneration, without the power of the Holy Spirit and yet the regenerated man cannot overcome it apart from either????? This is what James is demanding when he says: Thus suggesting that the lost man has the power to alter that "state of mind"! If that is true then the unregenerated man has more ability to deal with this mind set than the regenreated man. If the unregenerated man can overcome this mindset without regeneration or the power of the indwelling Spirit then why can't the regenerated man also overcome this "mind set" when he has been regenerated with a new "inward man" that delights in the law of God without the power of the indwelling Spirit??? Romans 7:14-25 proves he cannot and therefore this idea that the lost man can is false. Moreover, the ONLY SOLUTION provided for the regenerated man to overcome this "carnal" mindset is not sheer will power (Rom. 7:18) but the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit (Rom. 8:9-13). If this is the ONLY SOLUTION provided for victory over this carnal mind set described in verse 8 then how can the unregenerated man have another solution??? The regenerated man's only other option is found "in the Spirit" and the power of the Indwelling Spirit but the lost man does not have that option. Either the unregenerated man is SUPERIOR to the regenerated man or he is totally depraved and without ability to do so. There are no other logical alternatives.