The Catholic Church can't be THE Church because...

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by CarpentersApprentice, Jul 4, 2008.

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  1. CarpentersApprentice

    CarpentersApprentice
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    We often hear Catholics say that the Catholic church is the church that Jesus established 2000 years ago.

    What is your reasoned response to this statement?

    Thanks,

    CA
     
  2. Alive in Christ

    Alive in Christ
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    They cant possibly be the church that Christ founded because they proclaim a false gospel, while promoting idolatry, heresy, and goddess worship.


    :godisgood:
     
  3. CarpentersApprentice

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    Could you be specific?

    (I could probably guess at what you mean, but the terms - in and of themselves - are somewhat vague.)

    Thanks.

    CA
     
  4. Alive in Christ

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    CA...

    I said....

    And you said...


    Well, the saving gospel is that we are justified by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.

    The Catholic church and her apologists argue vehemently against that truth, claiming we must have acceptable works along with faith. They claim we access God, and attain a good standing with God, through faith + the sacraments + Mary's intercession + faithfully confessing sins to a priest so that he wil supposedly "absolve" them + living morally upright, etc etc etc.

    Regarding Goddess worship, they have given Mary several attributes that God alone has, they lift her up as the supposed "Queen of Heaven", they encourage people to bow to her statues, expect miracles and answered prayer through her, consider her to be the co-mediatrix and a dispenser of grace and blessings.

    They lift up multitudes of catholics of the past and turn them into dispensers of favors through little statues, trinkets, medals, etc.

    They have an unscriptural massive hiearchial monstrosity of a teaching magestirium that supposedly protects their teaching from error, which serves to keep her victims in bondage to this false church of Rome.

    All of this...wich is just the tip of the iceberg...is the promotion of a false gospel, heresy, idolatry, goddess worship and falsehood.

    Hope that helps.


    :godisgood:
     
  5. Amy.G

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    Wheeewww! As soon as I read this a scripture came to my mind:

    Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all [ye] that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
     
  6. mrtumnus

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    Since that truth is nowhere professed in the Bible, and words must be added to Scripture to produce it, there should be little surprise about this.

    Catholic theology is that we are saved by God’s grace. Not by our faith. Not by our works. God’s grace. Both faith and works are indeed necessary responses to the grace God offers.

    The Bible gives us a very clear definition of a faith without works – useless. Can such a faith save? Not according to the Bible. Yet for some reason many want to take every verse that speaks about ‘believing’ and ‘faith’ in the Bible and apply to it the Biblical definition of a ‘useless’ faith. :confused:

    Scripture instead is very clear. I can have enough faith to move a mountain, but without love, I am nothing. In fact, we are told that love is greater than faith. How can this be, if it is faith alone that saves us? St. Paul says that the ONLY thing that counts is faith expressing itself in love, and that “To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.” St. John tells us that those who claim to know him but do not do what he commands is a liar, and has no truth.

    Jesus himself tells us that every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. And he explains quite clearly that when he comes again in his glory to separate the sheep from the goats, his criteria is based upon how we treated Him, through the least of His brothers.

    So where again is believing that works are a necessary response to grace not part of the Gospel?
     
  7. mrtumnus

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    We claim we access God through His grace, which is accessible in many ways and limited to none of them.

    Regarding confession, Scripture tells us to confess our sins to one another that we may be healed. Who exactly do you confess your sins to as Scripture commands?
     
  8. mrtumnus

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    Not a one.
     
  9. mrtumnus

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    Certainly depends on what one believes regarding the role of the OT in foreshadowing the new. Do you believe that David and Solomon and the Jewish kingship is a foreshadowing of the Kingship of Christ and the kingdom of Heaven?
     
  10. mrtumnus

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    Bowing to statues – I saw an interesting news story a few years back. A group of people knelt before a graven image commonly known as a 10 commandments monument in front of an Alabama courthouse to pray. For some reason there were few cries of idolatry – why not?

    Of course, the Amish would consider us all to be idolaters. That is, if you have any pictures of yourself or your family. It is in violation of making a “likeness” of something you know. So are mirrors.

    And why is it that the large Baptist church nearest my home would never consider having any statues, except for some reason the Nativity they put on the front lawn doesn’t count?

    Regarding answered prayer, the source of all answered prayer is God. But if you ask a friend to pray for you and then the answer is received – does that mean the prayer was answered through her?
     
  11. mrtumnus

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    I may be the vehicle God uses to bring grace to someone else. It does not mean that I am the source of the grace.

    The source of all grace for the salvation of mankind is Jesus on the cross. God chose to make his plan of salvation dependent upon the willing participation of a human woman, who agreed at great personal risk to become the mother of Jesus. Was God limited to this plan? Of course not. But it is the one He chose. Mary has a unique role in the fulfillment of God’s plan. She was the vehicle he used to bring Jesus, the source of all grace into the world.
     
  12. mrtumnus

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    Oh yes, the communion of saints – one of my favorites. Catholics do not believe we are separated from the body of Christ at death. Do you?
     
  13. mrtumnus

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    And what keeps those outside of the church of Rome free from error? Pick just about any topic and those who would say Scripture does will disagree. Scripture says that when there is disagreement we should turn to the church for resolution. It also says we should submit and obey to the authority of our leaders, for they will be required to give account. Which leaders do you submit to the authority of as scripture commands?
     
  14. Palatka51

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    It is not the priestly hierarchy of the Roman Catholic Church. Too much blood on their hands for me. Through inquisitions and conquering by the sword sense Constantine. Though not so much sense the mid to later 1800's till now. Still too much history that is more akin to Islamic submission than submission to Christ. It is to Christ I submit and not the dictates of Rome.
     
  15. Thinkingstuff

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    Boy you need to read the thread about where was the Church in the 4th century? I think you have a lot of misconseption about specifically Constantine.
     
  16. Doubting Thomas

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    Very good post! :thumbs:
     
  17. Palatka51

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    "Boy" don't you know that it is not the Church's duty to take up sword and conquer in the name of Christ? Isn't this precisely what Constantine did? There are times to take up arms to defend family and nation but not bring the unbeliever under submission to Christ by sword and inquisition. You need to read Fox's Book of the Martyrs not some measly thread.
     
  18. annsni

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    Because they were praying near the statue to GOD and not to the 10 commandments. I grew up in the Catholic church and had 6 years of parochial school. Kneeling in front of Mary and praying to Mary is idolatry. Standing in front of a statue of Mary "crying" brings many thousands to see the icon and to cry, worship and adore it. Tell me that adoration of Mary doesn't happen in the Catholic church. That is idolatry.

    And the Amish are wrong.

    When you see the Baptist bowing down and praying in front of it, consecrating it and adoring it as if it were holy, then we have something to talk about. It's an object and nothing more. When thousands upon thousands of Baptists come from around the world to see the statue of baby Jesus bleeding, then we have something to talk about. It will never happen.

    The difference is that my friend is not dead and can hear me. If the dead can hear the prayers of those on earth, they are omnipresent and omniscient and thus God.
     
  19. Thinkingstuff

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    Ah no. He didn't. Now you can accuse Pepin or Otto or Charlemagne or Richard I. However, tell me where Constantine forced people to become Christian. He conqured Rome. That was Polictical. In fact I have read Fox's book of Martyrs and quote from it once or twice.
     
  20. Palatka51

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    Look, I know that he organized what is now Catholicism. He came to prominence in the guise of conquering with the blessings of the cross. Yet that has been the way of Roman Catholicism, as their Bishops have blessed all those that went forth and conquered under the banner of the cross sense Constantine.
     
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