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The Catholic Church can't be THE Church because...

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by CarpentersApprentice, Jul 4, 2008.

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  1. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff Active Member

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    I'm sorry that is not entirely correct. Actual history does not suggest that. Later years true. But the first group of people leaving Rome into Europe were missionaries (peaceful and they were matyred by the Celts). You want to blame Constantine for RCC? You would be better advice to blame the Bishops rather than Constantine. He did not established the church he created a forum for discussion in Nicea and the bishops went from there. That is history.
     
    #21 Thinkingstuff, Jul 8, 2008
  2. Palatka51

    Palatka51 New Member

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    They have always been that woman that has committed fornication with the Beast of Revelation. Riding the backs of the conquers of Europe. They talk the talk but be very aware even Satan can be seen as an angel of light. They never were the True Church of Christ.
     
    #22 Palatka51, Jul 8, 2008
  3. Doubting Thomas

    Doubting Thomas Active Member

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    Exactly. :thumbs:
     
    #23 Doubting Thomas, Jul 8, 2008
  4. Doubting Thomas

    Doubting Thomas Active Member

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    Who do you mean by "they"? Do you really mean that the bishops--many of whom had the physical scars from the great persecution of Diocletian--who met at Nicea in 325 never were in the True Church of Christ"? Or was it that they ceased to be in the Church when they met at Nicea to discuss the heresy of Arius? If not then, when exactly did they and their congregations cease to be the True Church of Christ?
     
    #24 Doubting Thomas, Jul 8, 2008
  5. Palatka51

    Palatka51 New Member

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    Don't you read Revelation? Just as soon as they used the sword of the state to bring any "heretic" or "infidel" into submission. Or even when it started to compromise with pagans and their feasts. That is when the Church ceased from being the True Church. It then had blood of the Saints on it's hands.
     
    #25 Palatka51, Jul 8, 2008
  6. peterotto

    peterotto New Member

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    Lets clarify what Grace means to a Catholic. It means performing a work to obtain the grace which is only dispensed through the Chruch.
    For example, going to Mass, baptism, confression.......

    The Jesus of the Catholics is also different than the one we read about in the Holy Scriptures. To a Catholic, Jesus did not pay for all of our sins. The Catholic must work off some of his own sins.

    To a protestant, Jesus paid for ALL sins.

    I ask you. Which Jesus is more powerful? The one that paid for ALL or the one the paid for some?


    See the difference now?
     
    #26 peterotto, Jul 8, 2008
  7. peterotto

    peterotto New Member

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    The Apostle's Creed which they recite every Mass has the statement "One Holy Apostolic Church."
    So they believe they came from the Apostles. Since it is from the Apostles, it must be from Christ.
     
    #27 peterotto, Jul 8, 2008
  8. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff Active Member

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    Your reading stuff into Revelations. To have a better understanding of Johns Revelations you should start studying apocalyptic literature. Compare with 1 Enoch and Daniel or The Assumption of Moses or The Apocalypse of Baruch. Jewish literature of this sort is very symbolic.
     
    #28 Thinkingstuff, Jul 8, 2008
  9. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff Active Member

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    I don't like defending Catholics but this statement is wrong. Catholics believe in salvation as an act of grace and that the requirement is belief. Now works are viewed as a maintenance of faith as opposed to our view which is works are a direct result of faith. In the end little difference. So your last questions is irrelevant because its assumption is wrong.
     
    #29 Thinkingstuff, Jul 8, 2008
  10. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff Active Member

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    Yes they believe they faithfully maintain the Deposit of Faith Handed down by the Apostes. As far as Catholic the term was initially meant to distinguish acceptable practices and beliefs by all christian churches.
     
    #30 Thinkingstuff, Jul 8, 2008
  11. Zenas

    Zenas Active Member

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    Actually you are referring to the Nicene Creed. The Apostles Creed omits the word "Apostolic" and simply says, "I believe in the Holy Catholic Church."
     
    #31 Zenas, Jul 8, 2008
  12. D28guy

    D28guy New Member

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    MrTumnus,

    Alive in Christ posted...
    And you said...

    You are completly wrong. The truth that we are justified by grace alone, though faith alone, in Christ alone, is THUNDERED from the scriptures. Over and over and over and over again.

    Here is one of the clearlest examples...

    Alive said...

    And you said...

    That is a lie. All that is required to be born of the Spirit and sealed permanently into Gods family is faith in Christ...and thats faith ALONE.

    The changed life that follows is the evidence that one has been born of the Spirit, but it plays no part in our being justified.


    True. Because that one has never been born of the Spirit. They were an imposter....they never had faith in Christ alone. They simply mouthed some words, or maybe were just someone who *believed* in Jesus, meaning they just believed that He lived and died on a cross.

    In the scriptures. Its thundered from the scriptures. Over and over and over again.

    Again...this is one of the clearest of the hundreds of times that faith alone is identified as the only requirement for justification...


    Mike
     
    #32 D28guy, Jul 8, 2008
  13. Doubting Thomas

    Doubting Thomas Active Member

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    Here we go....:tonofbricks:
     
    #33 Doubting Thomas, Jul 8, 2008
  14. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    Works is to faith what breathing is to being alive. In other words, if there are no works, then we must say that the faith is not alive. We cannot say that faith without works is useless because it's not faith if there are no works present. However, it's not the works that make us alive any more than making a corpse intake and exhale air makes it alive. It is the life that CAUSES the breathing/works to take place.

    Is love what saves us? Do you have Scripture to show us that?

    Because we can SEE the fruits of new life. Those who do not have life will be culled and those that do have life will be saved. It is not the works that do it but as I said before, it's the SIGN of life.

    Works is a response to the heart made alive. It's not part of becoming alive.
     
    #34 annsni, Jul 8, 2008
  15. Doubting Thomas

    Doubting Thomas Active Member

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    Yet, James says faith without works is dead...not "non-existent". In James' illustration, workless faith is the corpse, something that exists but is not living. James clearly states that a man is justified by works and NOT by faith alone (ie faith by itself).



    Galatians 5:6, what actually avails in Christ Jesus is "faith working through love". (If faith is not working through love, it's not availing for salvation...funny how Paul and James--and John and Peter for that matter--agree)



    Yet, one must continually and actively abide in Christ if he wants to bear fruit and not be cut off as a branch (John 15), and he must "diligently add" some things (virtue..love) to his faith so that he doesn't become unfruitful in his knowledge of Christ (2 Peter 1:5-11) and so that an entrance will be supplied for him into Christ's heavenly kingdom.
     
    #35 Doubting Thomas, Jul 8, 2008
  16. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    The word "justified" in this passage is clearly not saying that a man becomes "blameless" before God because that is not consistent with the Scriptures and we know that Scripture will not contradict itself. When we see the other verses that use this same Greek word, we see that it means another thing altogether - that it is SHOWING the righteousness. You cannot show righteousness by saying you have faith - it needs fruit to prove it.

    An example:

    Matthew 12:37 "for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."" (You're certainly not made righteous by just what you say)

    Note that in this James passage, it says in verse 21 that Abraham was "justified by his works" when he obeyed God in being ready to sacrifice Isaac but in Genesis 15:6, we're told that "And he believed the LORD, and he counted it to him as righteousness." Abraham was not made righteous by his obeying God in sacrificing Isaac because we're told that he was righteous BEFORE Isaac was even born.

    So we know that being justified by our works doesn't mean that we're made righteous by our works but SHOWING our righteousness. Again, faith is the life, works is the breathing. Works is the evidence of faith.






    Love doesn't save us. The passage says "For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love." Of course our faith will work through love since love is a fruit of the Spirit.



    None of this comes from our own will but from the Spirit in us. Vs. 8 and 9 say "For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins." This is not saying that we earn our salvation or that we even have a part in it. This is speaking of being effective for Christ - knowlegeable. If we do this, we will reap a great reward in the end upon our homegoing. But these works are not anything that save us. It is only the grace of God that saves us. Jesus' blood covers our unrighteousness and makes us righteous in God's sight.
     
    #36 annsni, Jul 8, 2008
  17. peterotto

    peterotto New Member

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    The 2nd Vatican Council, p. 63, "The truth has been divinely revealed that sins are followed by punishments. God’s holiness and justice inflict them. Sins must be expiated. This may be done on this earth through the sorrows, miseries and trials of this life and, above all, through death. Otherwise the expiation must be made in the next life through fire and torments or purifying punishments."

    From a Catholic Dictionary

    EXPIATION. Atonement for some wrongdoing. It implies an attempt to undo the wrong that
    one has done, by suffering a penalty, by performing some penance, or by making reparation or redress.

    Either Jesus made atonement for ALL the sins, or He did not. Vatican II clearly states Catholics must expiate("atone") for their sins. So my original statement was..............RIGHT ON!
     
    #37 peterotto, Jul 8, 2008
  18. D28guy

    D28guy New Member

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    DT,

    Yep. Here we go again.

    Having to make clear to folks...who SHOULD know better...what IS and what ISNT the saving gospel of Jesus Christ.

    Grace ALONE, through faith ALONE, in Christ ALONE.

    Almighty Gods one saving gospel.

    Having to take people by the hand...like 1st graders...and walk them through the ABC's again.

    It gets wearisome, but when God tells you to do it, well....dont have much choice, do we?


    Mike
     
    #38 D28guy, Jul 8, 2008
  19. peterotto

    peterotto New Member

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    Council of Trent
    CANON IX.-If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema.

    Nope requirement is faith plus works. Nice try Thinkingstuff. :tonofbricks:
     
    #39 peterotto, Jul 8, 2008
  20. Alive in Christ

    Alive in Christ New Member

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    Here is some excellant information regarding the contrast between Gods saving gospel and the RCC's false and non saving gospel.

    It also includes evidence that the Church of Rome has cursed anyone who holds to the true gospel of Jesus Christ.

    A link is at the bottom


    http:////www.carm.org/catholic/gospel.htm



    :godisgood:
     
    #40 Alive in Christ, Jul 8, 2008
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