The catholic church recants!

Look, you are not saying they are merely an "expression" of faith! You are saying they are a NECESSARY and INSEPARABLE expression of faith and therefore essential to true salvation as you go on to argue that their absence to SOME DEGREE invalidates salvation altogether.

The problem you have as I see it, is that you cannot distinguish between "faith" and what actually justifies a person! Faith does not justify anyone and neither does works justify anyone. Demons have faith but they are not justified by it. It is the object of faith that justifies and it is a completed action of justification because it is based SOLELY upon the works of Jesus Christ IN OUR BEHALF. Hence, your works cannot improve it or disprove it they can only express it or fail to express it. In Lot's case they failed to express it. In I Cor. 3:11-15 they completely fail to express it, but the person is saved nevertheless.

Yes! Because you cannot confuse justification with sanctification as they are two distinct and separates ideas concerned with two distinct and separate aspects of salvation IN GENERAL. The former has to do with your position before God which secures entrance into heaven while the lattter has to do with your progressive condition and what secures present blessings, usefulness and reward in heaven. Quite a difference.

You do not believe anyone is "firmly" in the salvation camp because you believe works ultimately determine that not justification and therefore some that were "in" can be ultimately be lost not due to justification but due to works. Hence, you confuse justification with sanctification.

No, I am talking about what secures you there for eternity and God has already decided that the beleiver cannot come into any future judgement in regard to eternal life or death (Jn. 5:24). You are talking about the IMPERFECT manner in which all true believers live. NEVER sinless, always sinful to some degree at some times more than other times. Works do not always manifest the spiritual condition of a professor as those in matthew 7:21-23 were FULL OF GOOD WORKS performed in the name of Jesus but were lost. They were lost, because their foundation was a MIXTURE of faith plus works rather than the solid rock of the sinlessness works of Jesus Christ (Mt. 5:20,48) as this is "the will of the Father in heaven" (Jn. 6:37-40).

Certainly, but your justification is not obtained IN FAITH expressed or unexpressed by works but IN CHRIST and his completed propitiation.

You need to go back and reread James 2:14-18 as the whole discussion is human observation and he specifically uses the words "shew you" versus "shew me" and a man may "say...to me." His very illustration of a poor person asking for food is a point of human observation.

 

:laugh: I never said that. This is what I said

non sequitur

Non sequitur

preachy and non sequitur.

Again preachy and a non sequitur.

Wait. This from the Man who is always Judging motive? :laugh: All I have to say is watch for the plank dude.

What accusation? That you misrepressented what I said and rather than debate tend to preach? Sure read the thread. I don't know how "Serious" the accusation is however its not like I called you an unsaved devil worshiping and popery loving bigot. I haven't even questioned you salvation as you have many others.

again non sequitur.

 

Here I actually agree with you about Israel Doc Wally..... I also believe that Jesus died for us all. (see 1 Tim 2: 3-4 )

So I am right! Raspberry salute!! LOL

Pigs do Fly!

 

Contentious, contentious, contentious. Are we not brothers in Christ?

I would ask you all to take a moment & reset.

Thanks

 

Well I guess pigs do fly (grin)

 

Again misquoting and representing what I have said. I said the expression of faith is inseperable from faith. Look again and read it. That is what I have said. If you're not expressing your faith by what you do your faith is dead. James said it so did I by quoting him. You attempt to wrap my soteriology around something that you misevaluate.

Again you misrepresent what I have said. I said I cannot distinguish between what you do and the faith you have.

You're contradicting yourself. Or at this point I may be confusing you and DHK.

Demons don't have faith. They have a belief. I see a difference.

You just contradicted yourself.

ok.

what are you talking about? A saved person will act saved. How is this complicated? I'm not saying they are perfect but I suspect you think I do.

again you make an assumption. You know what happens when you assume don't you?

again saved people will act saved. Jesus is pretty clear on this point as is James. I noticed you've ignored Blackaby's 3rd point. And again works do not save. Jesus does.

again you know what happens when you assume?

Why I'm familiar with the book its you who seems to ignore it. And by the way does God only speak in king james english or is he big enough to use words like show? I think you should read it for context rather than picking out a single antiquated word to wrap the whole book around.

 

No, we are not all brothers in Christ here on this forum, unless, you believe in TWO opposing doctrines of salvation can both obtain the same end - heaven??? Paul didn't believe that - Gal.1:6-9.

This is the cutting edge of a spiritual BATTLE and an age old one between works and grace.

 

Let me explain non sequitur to you. It means "it doesn't follow" as in the flow of logical steps. If I say something and you contradict what I said by preaching what it was I said in affirmative it doesn't follow the logical flow presented by contradiction. as in I said "works do not save" and you keep insisiting "your wrong works don't save!" there is no logical flow to it. And the point become irrelevant. I hope that explains it to you.

What personal attack? I said you misrepresent what I've said (personal attack?) I've said you're preachy ( personal attack? well maybe? a bad one? doubtful) I've said you've questioned the salvation of others? Well, thats just true. And I said I haven't called you

So which accusation or personal attack are you talking about?

 

It really isn't but if you want to wear the cape and mask and play superhero its cool with me.

 

I dont understand your position...could you please embellish

 

Works only express faith. Works are not inseparable from faith because if they were, you never cease to be without works at all times OR you would be lost and saved and lost and saved whenever works are absent, as that would mean faith is absent, and thus unbelief is present, and so you go from belief to unbelief to belief to unbelieve...SO WHAT WOULD YOUR SPIRITUAL STATUS BE WHILE IN UNBELIEF??????? Think about it!

Hence, faith as expressed by works is dead to the observer not INSIDE the true believer when they are not living like a Christian. Even when they are not living like a Christian they have not SPIRITUALLY gone from saved to lost or from regenerated to unregenerated or from UNBELIEF IN CHRIST as their justification.

I am using the KJV and if you don't like it, tough! You are selecting James 2:14-22 as you proof text to defend your position and I am telling you that context is riddled full of HUMAN OBSERVATIONAL language. James is not talking about justification before God but before men.

14 ¶ What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Abraham demonstrated visibly his faith to his son Isaac, to the servants that attended him and to us that read about it. Rachab demonstrated visibly her faith to the two spies, her family by what she did by bringing them into her room and to all of Israel by hanging out the red cord.

James is speaking about the life or death of faith in the sphere of human observation. It is dead in time and space before men when there are no VISIBLE expressions to men. This is true of genuinely saved persons who are not PRESENTLY expressing such works before men -their faith is DEAD in regard to any living expression before men but it is not absent within them.

You simply do not understand God's design for progressive sanctification or works. It is not essential for entrance into heaven nor was it designed for that. It is not SINLESSNESS in action nor was it designed for that. It is designed to obtain spiritual growth, blessings of salvation and usefulness here and now. It is designed to obtain rewards in heaven. It is not designed to secure, maintain salvation.

Saving faith is not inseparable from works EXCEPT in the visible sphere of observation by men as they judge your profession "a man may say" by your works.

 

It is very simple according to Paul in Galatians 1:6-9 there is only ONE gospel that saves and all others have been "accursed" because that will the finality of all who embrace them as their basis for salvation.

Justification by faith versus justification by works is the contrast or the two gospels in opposition to each other.

We have several on this forum who defend justification by faith with works and we have several on this forum who defend justification by faith alone - both cannot be right and yet the Bible knows of only TWO contrasting alternatives, not three or four or five.

 

Sigh. If you read the thread you would see that I said I wasn't sure of Lots salvation 2 peter said he was just I'm just not sure it means just in salvation or not having taken part of the evil of Sodom. You will find I answer this way because both Moab and Ammonites come from him. It was already said. and its a non sequitur because I have already said works do not save which leads me to this next very important point.

Since I have already made it clear I do not believe works save when you post (post 47 btw) this statement

I find it peachy and sanctimonious. Because I had already said works do not save! And the topic I was on with Dr. Walter was about Israel in eschetology which had very little to do with this statement after I already Identified works do not save.
BTW you haven't touched a nerve with me. However, you've slandered me on several occassions. You called me a liar and a catholic. I've given you my church and if you like to come for a visit you are welcome. I on the other hand present an opinion of how you post. So tell me which is slander?

let the administration judge.

 

It really is the cutting edge of the spiritual battle as salvation or the lack of it determines the eternal destiny of all men. From the very beginning it has been either the "way of Cain" or the way of Abel. Jesus claimed on TWO ways (Mt. 7:13-14). The Pauline epistles give only TWO contrasting ways of justification, ways of salvation (works versus grace, faith versus law; faith versus works, grace versus law). THERE IS NO MIDDLE FENCE or third, fourth or fifth, etc. alternatives.

When you say that works are inseparable from faith you misrepresent the WHOLE truth of Scripture by giving a HALF truth as the whole truth.

Justifying faith exists WITHIN the mind and heart of the saint, in their position before God, in his sight, AT ALL TIMES not merely when they are expressing it in "good" works but in "bad" works as well. However, in the sphere of human observation which James is clearly discussing ("a man may say TO ME" "shew ME" "shew YOU" "Can YOU SEE" etc.) faith is dead when there is no visible expression of it by works.

That "dead" expression cannot justify anyone before God or man and therefore it cannot save anyone. James is exhorting BELIEVERS to demonstrate what does justify them and saves them in a LIVING VISIBLE manner by their works.

 

However, Peter does not merely say he was "just" but in addition describes his "soul" as "RIGHTEOUS" and that has nothing to do with EXTERNALS. Only God can see the soul.

7 ¶ And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds
9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations,

 

You've certainly complicated matters. You again assume. with regard to

not true.

yes very true the saved will act saved.

You're begining to confuse things again.

I agree.

You don't get sarcasm do you?

As a means to explain a truth. Paul uses a race. But its not that he's arguing from observation but from what is.

Very clear teaching amen.

amen

Yes he did

you are adding to scripture here.

Go further in james he seems to indicate an entirley different thing

and

Contrarily I think I do. I think you give away this invaluable design of God for easy believism.

I never said it was.

I agree. What does this

mean to you.

Not you have to keep using adjectives to describe faith. I use it wholeistacly.

 

I think only the Catholic Church (maybe Anglican / Episcopal) hold to those beliefs. True protestants & I'm including bible believing baptists do not...so what are you saying? [personal accusation removed]