The Catholic Church the Church of God?

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by faithcontender, Oct 9, 2003.

  1. faithcontender

    faithcontender
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2003
    Messages:
    395
    Likes Received:
    0
    From the other thread:

    As i understand from the Scriptures, the Church of God is an assembly of the redeemed, those believers in Christ who committed their lives to the Lordship of Jesus Christ.

    How can the catholic church claim to be the church of God when many of her members do not even know the gospel of Christ.
     
  2. Frogman

    Frogman
    Expand Collapse
    <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2001
    Messages:
    5,492
    Likes Received:
    0
    In my poor opinion it is the claim that salvation is in the church that proves that statement incorrect. If salvation is in the church, why do these not know the Gospel? If salvation is in the church, then why bother knowing the Gospel?

    Bro Dallas
     
  3. Carson Weber

    Carson Weber
    Expand Collapse
    <img src="http://www.boerne.com/temp/bb_pic2.jpg">

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2001
    Messages:
    3,079
    Likes Received:
    0
    Well, what did Jesus say?

    Another parable he put before them, saying, "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field but while men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. So when the plants came up and bore grain, then the weeds appeared also. And the servants of the householder came and said to him, `Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then has it weeds?' He said to them, `An enemy has done this.' The servants said to him, `Then do you want us to go and gather them?' But he said, `No; lest in gathering the weeds you root up the wheat along with them. Let both grow together until the harvest; and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn ... He who sows the good seed is the Son of man; the field is the world, and the good seed means the sons of the kingdom; the weeds are the sons of the evil one, and the enemy who sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the close of the age, and the reapers are angels. Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the close of the age. The Son of man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all evildoers, and throw them into the furnace of fire; there men will weep and gnash their teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear."

    According to Jesus, his kingdom isn't invisible [e.g. the "invisible Church"] and it is full of weeds [i.e., unbelievers]. The Protestant conception of a Donatist church is an age-old heresy that is explicitly denied by the God-man in the Gospel.

    http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ196.HTM

    The above link is to How Do Catholics Hear the Gospel? by Gary Michuta who served as the sponsor to my roommate - Robert Corzine, http://www.salvationhistory.com/mission/staff/robbio.cfm - when he was reconciled to the Church in 1994 as a Baptist.
     
  4. Frogman

    Frogman
    Expand Collapse
    <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2001
    Messages:
    5,492
    Likes Received:
    0
    Aha!! Carson, I am a landmark Baptist, I do not believe in an invisible, nor an universal church.

    Have you ever read Leonard Verduin's THE REFORMER'S AND THEIR STEPCHILDREN ?

    Bro. Dallas
     
  5. Carson Weber

    Carson Weber
    Expand Collapse
    <img src="http://www.boerne.com/temp/bb_pic2.jpg">

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2001
    Messages:
    3,079
    Likes Received:
    0
    Have you ever read Leonard Verduin's THE REFORMER'S AND THEIR STEPCHILDREN?

    No, but I've read the Bible. ;)
     
  6. Frogman

    Frogman
    Expand Collapse
    <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2001
    Messages:
    5,492
    Likes Received:
    0
    That is a good one. I figured you may have, but I honestly wasn't sure, you post alot from somebody named Augustine and other 'church fathers'. ;) I just assumed you enjoyed reading.

    I know you know that I have read the Bible as well, but I am going to ask this as if I hadn't:
    Does the Bible teach a universal church?

    Bro. Dallas
     
  7. Carson Weber

    Carson Weber
    Expand Collapse
    <img src="http://www.boerne.com/temp/bb_pic2.jpg">

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2001
    Messages:
    3,079
    Likes Received:
    0
    you post alot from somebody named Augustine and other 'church fathers.'

    If you've read the Fathers, you would know that the Scriptures - old and new - were their very vocabulary. As Jerome put it, "Ignoratio Scripturarum, Ignoratio Christi".

    Does the Bible teach a universal church?

    The Bible teaches a "universal" church insofar as "universal" means "from every nation and race". The New Covenant Kingdom, which is the restored Kingdom of Israel under the Davidic King, is the incorporation of all Nations (Israelite and Gentile) into the People of God. The NC Church is not limited to one race or lineage, but rather, to every man, woman, and child.
     
  8. faithcontender

    faithcontender
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2003
    Messages:
    395
    Likes Received:
    0


    Matthew
    13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.

    13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

    13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

    From the above verses:

    The field is the world
    The good seed are the children of the kingdom
    The tares are the children of the wicked

    If you mean that the field is the church where both the children of the kingdom and the children of the wicked both grow then your interpretation is wrong. It is very clear from the mouth of Jesus that the field is the world where both believers and unbelievers both live. You are guilty of twisting the word of God.

    If God intended that both the believers and unbelievers be part of the church then how can the apostle Paul told the Corinthians:

    2Corinthians
    6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? 6:15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

    6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

    6:18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.
     
  9. Carson Weber

    Carson Weber
    Expand Collapse
    <img src="http://www.boerne.com/temp/bb_pic2.jpg">

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2001
    Messages:
    3,079
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hi faithcontender,

    The field is indeed the world. This is where the word of God is sown, and the weeds grow up alongside the wheat.

    In Mt 13:47-50, Jesus also likens the kingdom to a net thrown into the sea (cf. Mt 13:47-50), which collects both bad and good fish, the wicked and the righteous.

    In this latter parable, you do not have the freedom that you have espoused with regard to interpretation in the former parable. The dragnet is certainly not the sea, and this dragnet (i.e., the kingdom) includes bad fish alongside the good fish.
     
  10. Frogman

    Frogman
    Expand Collapse
    <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2001
    Messages:
    5,492
    Likes Received:
    0
    Carson, I don't care what Jerome [mistyped igntious :rolleyes: ] said, I am not ignorant.

    Now, having said that let me say. I agree, the NC, assuming you don't mean North Carolina, is for 'whosoever'. but I disagree concerning the kingdom etc. Remember I said I am a landmark Baptist. This means I believe in a local visible church, I believe in the pre-trib rapture [and not because of T. Lehaye, I do not read him]. I believe in the post-tribulational millenial kingdom in which Christ will sit on the throne of David. I believe this will be a time of rewards. I believe at the end of the age--which includes the present--Christ will deliver the kingdom over to God and God shall be all and all. this is a summary of my beliefs, but enough I think to let you know where I am coming from and going to. I believe During the Tribulation on earth, there will be a marriage supper in heaven consummating the bridegroom and his undefiled bride. I believe at the return of Christ His Bride will come with him and he will establish his kingdom in Israel and rule from the throne of David in Jerusalem for 1000 yrs. I believe at this time Israel will be fully restored to original national ruler ship. I believe at the end of this time Satan will be loosed and go out to decieve the nations and at this time he will be cast into the lake of fire. I do not believe the anti-christ, as some do will come out of Rome, nor that he is the pope, unless Rome elects a Jewish pope. I believe in order for this man to hold any authority over Israel he will have to show a lineage from David, it would be more difficult to do this as a professing Roman catholic, but hey, what do I know? None the less, I do not look for the anti christ when I see the Pope, that should releive you I guess.

    But, I believe at the consummation of the age, Christ having given the kingdom over to God, then you and I, in so much as we are true believers, shall enjoy an equal position in the family of God for all eternity.

    Bro. Dallas
     
  11. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2002
    Messages:
    5,178
    Likes Received:
    0
    Dallas,

    I think the reason why Catholics, for the most part, do not know the Bible, the Word of God, because, as you said, they are taught that salvation comes through the church via the hands of the priesthood. From his hands Christ, in the form of the real body and blood of the Lord is offered at every mass. Hey, if salvation comes through the church then as long as one attends the mass, he or she will attain eventually the beatific vision of Christ on His throne. Why study theology and the Word of God, the Bible; after all this is the ministry of the priest to provide all the truth to them, spoon fed. As I see it, they have to throw their minds in neutral because there is no dependence on the Spirit of God to guide their understanding. [John 14:26; I John 2:27] because truth comes straight from the papal chair.

    And this is the reason, I think that you wrote, ' If salvation is in the church, then why bother knowing the Gospel?'

    The reason why we need to study the written Word, the Bible, is because it has come to us straight from Jesus Christ our Savior.
     
  12. Carson Weber

    Carson Weber
    Expand Collapse
    <img src="http://www.boerne.com/temp/bb_pic2.jpg">

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2001
    Messages:
    3,079
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thank you for the clear statement of your pre-trib views, Dallas, and I did not mean to imply that you are ignorant of Scripture; I was simply stating a maxim by a Father that was held by all the Fathers. Their writings are entirely "Scriptural", based on Scripture, commenting on Scripture, and discussing Scripture, and Jerome's quote embraces this "Scriptural" worldview. This should help dispell the myth that studying the Fathers is somehow to be pitted against the study of Scripture insofar as attending a local Bible study is against the study of Scripture.
     
  13. Frogman

    Frogman
    Expand Collapse
    <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2001
    Messages:
    5,492
    Likes Received:
    0
    You are right Bro. Ray, when I wrote that I thought some would wonder why I did it. It is a habit from my conditioning in teacher ed. sorry. But you correctly surmised the reason for my writing it as I did, it is called higher level thinking...and in this case it is hoped that by the power of the Spirit of God it will be lifted above the holy mother.

    The concern I have seen is that not a few Catholics are nominal. Why is this a concern? they have the mass administered by the able hands of an earthly priest, they have then the double protection of purgatory in which they are able by their sufferings to pay for sins committed in the flesh, so who needs a vibrant personal relationship with a Savior?

    Bro. Dallas
     
  14. Frogman

    Frogman
    Expand Collapse
    <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2001
    Messages:
    5,492
    Likes Received:
    0
    Carson, I stated what I did as humor. I knew there was no implication involved toward me. I have never read Jerome, and not many of the others, but I have read some of Polycarp, Erasmus, and I know not who else. I don't disagree with you. I read T.P. Simmons, JR Graves, Spurgeon, Gill, Pink, [funny how the really great ones by our standards only have one name ain't it?], and again I know not who. If I was opposed to reading anything but scripture then it would be difficult to remain here on the BB and on other forums I enjoy fellowship through.

    O, yeah, I forgot Calvin, I have read him. I tried Luther once, but I felt he drawed too much of the baptismal salvation/regeneration into his teaching. Sadly many of our protestant brethren look to him over Calvin, but maybe German was easier to translate :confused:

    I also read Josephus, would he be like a father of history?

    Bro. Dallas
     
  15. faithcontender

    faithcontender
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2003
    Messages:
    395
    Likes Received:
    0
    Assuming that the interpretation that the kingdom of God is the church. Then it follows that only converted one or born again believers are to enter into it.

    For Jesus said:

    3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

    3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
     
  16. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2002
    Messages:
    5,178
    Likes Received:
    0
    Dallas,

    Thanks for your insight; can you amplify about your statement, 'But you
    correctly surmised the reason for my writing it as I did, it is called higher level of
    thinking...and in this case it is hoped that by the power of the Spirit of God it
    will be lifted above the holy mother.'

    Especially the phrase about ' . . . will be lifted above the holy mother.'
     
  17. Frogman

    Frogman
    Expand Collapse
    <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2001
    Messages:
    5,492
    Likes Received:
    0
    Bro. Ray,
    Check your question on 'can someone explain'.

    I meant that I hoped the Holy Spirit would lift the thinking to a higher level than Mary.

    Bro. Dallas
     
  18. CatholicConvert

    CatholicConvert
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2001
    Messages:
    1,958
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hey Hillbilly --

    (Don't git crazy on me. You are the one who called yerself that.)

    Anyhoo, you best be careful what you are reading. I read all the above authors (Pink was my favorite as a Calvinist) and dern if they didn't build a foundation in me that led me right into the Church.

    Of course, we would be glad to have you come enter the great Barque of St. Peter and taste and see that the Lord is good!! :D

    Brother Ed
     
  19. CatholicConvert

    CatholicConvert
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2001
    Messages:
    1,958
    Likes Received:
    0
    Well, once again you are just wrong. The reason that Catholics in America do not know their faith is because in the last two centuries, they got caught up in American materialism and put more value upon the acquisition of THINGS rather than the deeper life of following Christ.

    In other words, they were deceived by the evil one, just as Protestants were 500 years ago when they rebelled against our Lord's Church.

    Deception -- it can happen to anyone!
     
  20. Frogman

    Frogman
    Expand Collapse
    <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2001
    Messages:
    5,492
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hey Hillbilly --

    (Don't git crazy on me. You are the one who called yerself that.)

    Anyhoo, you best be careful what you are reading. I read all the above authors (Pink was my favorite as a Calvinist) and dern if they didn't build a foundation in me that led me right into the Church.

    Of course, we would be glad to have you come enter the great Barque of St. Peter and taste and see that the Lord is good!! :D

    Brother Ed
    </font>[/QUOTE]I am sorry CatholicConvert, I am further pushed into the muck of hillbillyism for want of understanding your post. See if Carson will loan you some rope and toss me a line...will ya? Once I am out, you can burn me if you wish, I just desire not to drown in a pool of nonsense.

    Hurry!! I think Carson said he was running out of rope.

    your statement about Pink being instrumental to leading you to Catholicism is a great weight and I am sinking fast below it, please pray the holy mother will lift it off my poor sinful frame. that I may understand how Pink's writings could ever drive anyone into pomp and ceremony.
     

Share This Page

Loading...