The Catholic "Mary" to take greater role in salvation

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Alive in Christ, Feb 24, 2010.

  1. Alive in Christ

    Alive in Christ
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    The Romish church never ceases to amaze....



    May God have mercy, and continue to pull His people out of this hellish organisation.

    http://christiannewswire.com/news/1280812830.html
     
    #1 Alive in Christ, Feb 24, 2010
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  2. Amy.G

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    That is disgusting.
     
  3. lori4dogs

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    "Lumen Gentium 62: "The Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the Titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix. This, however, must be so understood that it neither takes away anything from, nor adds anything to, the dignity and efficacy of Christ, the one Mediator.

    We must fully understand that all doctrine, especially those dealing with the Blessed Mother, be viewed with this in mind, that nothing takes away or adds to the finished work of Jesus Christ:mediator par excellence!!"
     
  4. BobRyan

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    If Mary is to be elevated to being the "ONE mediatrix" between man and Christ -- and Christ is to be reduced to the "ONE mediator between Mary and God" -- then we have all just been pushed back a step from where the Bible placed us.

    If on the other hand the RCC is saying that we can either go to Christ or Mary who will then talk to Christ -- take your pick. I choose Christ.

    The RCC idea seems to be that Christ Loves Mary more than the saints - so if she were to ask Christ to help you for the very same thing that you were going to take to Christ - you would be better served. At least that seems to be the idea one gets from these Mediatrix talks.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  5. lori4dogs

    lori4dogs
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    Most of this I obtained from a class I just completed:

    Lets look at the doctrine of Mary the Mediatrix. In this case you will hear 1Tim 2:5 quoted "there is one mediator between God and man, and that is the man Jesus Christ" You Catholics contradict Scripture by teaching that Mary is a "mediatrix"!!

    Again the Catholic Church affirms that Jesus is the one mediator, as the verse teaches, but does that exclude secondary and even tertiary mediators? Does this verse exclude all other mediators. Lets take a look at this verse in context to see what it really says!!

    l. First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men,2 for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way.3 This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

    Realise what Paul is saying. He commands us to pray "for all men, for kings and all who are in high places". What is it to pray for someone but to be their mediator?? Why pray for others?? "Verse 3:This is good and pleasing to God. Why is it good and pleasing to God? verse 4"God desires all men to be saved". Do you see the connection here between intercessory prayer (verses 1&2), and its ability towards the salvation of souls(verse 4)? How can this be?? Verse 5:" For there is one mediator between God and man and that is the man Jesus Christ!!" We can do all this praying and mediating only because Christ is the one Mediator!! He is my mediator, DHK's mediator, Amy's mediator, the mediator of all in the world!!! All our prayers, and all the prayers of the Faithful go through that one mediator, Jesus Christ!!

    Mary is a mediator just like you and I are mediators.
     
  6. lori4dogs

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    Here is how I understand it, Bob. This is the way that we are to understand the role of Mary as our Mediatrix. She is a mediator like us, but because of the special role given her by God in His plan of salvation, Her mediation far exceeds our own. James 5:16 says "The prayers of a just man availeth much." What creature was more just than Mary?? Her prays are much more efficacious than ours, for this reason we ask her to pray to Jesus with us (thus giving us a prayer group of two when only one is praying)!
     
  7. BobRyan

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    So is the error of the RCC in that it does not say "Mary -- one of MANY MEDIATRICIES"??

    If so - I find it odd that they continually avoid such a title for Mary.

    If the intent here is to claim that any time you pray for others you TOO are "THE MEDIATRIX between God and Man" or you TOO are "THE mediatrix between man and Christ" then again - how odd that such titles are not handed around between and among Catholic church members today.

    When was the last time you met a Catholic calling himself THE MEDIATOR between God and Man - or ONE of MANY mediators between God and man.

    BUT if it really were just the "everyman title" why would they be spending any time at all talking about it for Mary? It would be like saying "We have decided to call Mary a Christian". Not exactly a news-worthy announcement.

    Thus the fact that it IS taking so much deliberation on their part to get around to making "Mary THE Mediatrix" (in fact CO-Mediator with Christ) something more official -- betrays just how "NOT ordinary" this title is even to Catholics.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  8. Trotter

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    Bottom line: Mary, just like the so-called saints, are all dead people, but Jesus Christ is alive and well. Praying to anyone or anything outside of the Godhead is idolatry in the basest form, and that would include Mary, Mother Theresa, Saint So-and-So, whoever.

    We are to worship God in His three persons of Father, Son, and Spirit, and NO ONE ELSE. We are to pray to the members of the Godhead and NO ONE ELSE. Again, anything outside of that is idolatry and profanes God.

    How much more simple can this be? Mary, while a great and godly woman, was just a woman. She is now dust and her spirit resides in heaven just like everyone else who has died in faith. She is no more special than any other sinner saved by grace; being willing to be used by God did not grant her any special pass or favor.

    Care to explain the whole "pray to dead people" thing? From where I am standing all of it is as far from Christian as it can get. Not only is it worshiping someone other than God, but it is akin to consulting a familiar spirit and communing with the dead.
     
  9. lori4dogs

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    For one thing, they are quite alive. Hebrew 10:36

    Can you show me that prayer is always worship. I agree with you that we are only to worship God. I don't worship Mary or the saints. I do ask them to pray for me. They intercede for me just as you can intercede for me.

    To say that 'she was just a woman' is a typical protestant statement. She was much more than 'just a woman'. She said the perfect 'yes' to God. She was Jesus mother, Theotokos. How close are you to your own mother? Do you think that Jesus probably has a relationship with His? I do!
     
  10. Grace&Truth

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    1 Tim. 2:5 is not referring to Jesus as a mediator of prayer. It is referring to Jesus as The Only Mediator of Salvation v:4 & 6. This title should not be used for Mary, she is not a Mediatrix. Jesus is our Only Mediator.

    1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
    1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
    1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.


    Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
     
  11. Alive in Christ

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    Lori4dogs..

    Nonsense. Her "yes" was no more "perfect" than my yes, your yes, or the "yes" of billions of others who have placed their faith in Christ, or said "yes" in any number of other ways.

    Yes, she was Christs earthly mother, in the sense that she bore Him, and took care of Him while He grew up. It means absolutely nothing more than that.

    Mary has NEVER been given that "Title" by God or anyone else who matters.

    Only by the Catholic cult and the equally in error "Orthodox"...both of whom must do whatever they can to keep their "goddess" always "High and Lifted up"

    You have been lied to, Lori. By deceivers who can do you no good.

    May God have mercy.
     
  12. BobRyan

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    A couple of observations then -

    1. You would think that IF it were even half true that Mary holds such a position for mediation that we would have at least ONE example in the New Testament of someone asking her to pray to God "for them" - while she was alive - or possibly even more so while she was dead.

    But instead - we have not one example of this in all of scripture.

    2. In your explanation it "appears" that the ideal avenue to Christ is not going directly to Christ -- our ONE mediator between God and man - but rather going to Christ THROUGH Mary.

    Did I miss something there?


    3. Finally - and perhaps THE biggest hurdle of all for the Catholic position here - is that there just so happens to be ONE case in the NT where someone actually comes to Christ with the "Catholic" idea (in its infancy clearly) - they seek to show praise to Christ by praising Mary for her role as "Mother of Christ" - As they start their train of blessing "Blessed be..." (the woman that gave you birth ) - Christ response is in Luke 11 "28 But He said, "On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it."

    Now suppose that the standard response to all the prayers and blessings said about Mary was the opening statement of Christ "On the Contrary..." - what a "different" Catholic teaching we would have on the subject of Mary today.


    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #12 BobRyan, Feb 24, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 24, 2010
  13. lori4dogs

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    "Nonsense. Her "yes" was no more "perfect" than my yes, your yes, or the "yes" of billions of others who have placed their faith in Christ, or said "yes" in any number of other ways."

    Can't agree. Has God ever asked you or anyone else in history to be the mother of divinity?? Obviously, she is not just a woman like every other woman in history.

    "Yes, she was Christs earthly mother, in the sense that she bore Him, and took care of Him while He grew up. It means absolutely nothing more than that."

    I bet it means something more to Jesus!
     
  14. BobRyan

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    Trotter has a good point here - because in 1Thess 4 the saints who have died are called "THE DEAD in Christ".

    And in Isaiah 8 the people of God are specifically told "NOT to consult the dead on behalf of the living".

    As a past issue of Catholic Digest noted - God gave Israel the job of wiping out such practices.


    Heb 10:36 does not say anything at all about those that Paul calls the "dead in Christ" not really being dead.


    Certainly when we go to the living today and consult with them about our difficulties -- asking them to pray for us about for specific issues - we can appreaciate their concern for us.

    But when we are told not to consult the dead on behalf of the living - we have to decide whether to take that seriously or not.


    Indeed and to the Luke 11 proposal that was in essence "blessed by Jesus Mother" -- Jesus' own response was "on the contrary..."

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  15. lori4dogs

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    The best response, I believe, would be taken from materials I received in that class I mentioned I just completed, I will list Paul's writing again along with Mark, John, James and the writer to the Hebrews:

    1 Tim 2:1-2 - because Jesus Christ is the one mediator between God and man (1 Tim. 2:5), many Protestants deny the Catholic belief that the saints on earth and in heaven can mediate on our behalf. But before Paul's teaching about Jesus as the "one mediator," Paul urges supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people. Paul is thus appealing for mediation from others besides Christ, the one mediator. Why?

    1 Tim 2:3 - because this subordinate mediation is good and acceptable to God our Savior. Because God is our Father and we are His children, God invites us to participate in Christ's role as mediator.

    1 Tim. 2:5 - therefore, although Jesus Christ is the sole mediator between God and man, there are many intercessors (subordinate mediators).

    1 Cor. 3:9 - God invites us to participate in Christ's work because we are God's "fellow workers" and one family in the body of Christ. God wants His children to participate. The phrase used to describe "fellow workers" is "sunergoi," which literally means synergists, or cooperators with God in salvific matters. Does God need fellow workers? Of course not, but this shows how much He, as Father, loves His children. God wants us to work with Him.

    Mark 16:20 - this is another example of how the Lord "worked with them" ("sunergountos"). God cooperates with us. Out of His eternal love, He invites our participation.

    Rom. 8:28 - God "works for good with" (the Greek is "sunergei eis agathon") those who love Him. We work as subordinate mediators.

    2 Cor. 6:1 - "working together" (the Greek is "sunergountes") with him, don't accept His grace in vain. God allows us to participate in His work, not because He needs our help, but because He loves us and wants to exalt us in His Son. It is like the father who lets his child join him in carrying the groceries in the house. The father does not need help, but he invites the child to assist to raise up the child in dignity and love.

    Heb. 12:1 - the “cloud of witnesses” (nephos marturon) that we are surrounded by is a great amphitheatre of witnesses to the earthly race, and they actively participate and cheer us (the runners) on, in our race to salvation.

    1 Peter 2:5 - we are a holy priesthood, instructed to offer spiritual sacrifices to God. We are therefore subordinate priests to the Head Priest, but we are still priests who participate in Christ's work of redemption.

    Rev. 1:6, 5:10 - Jesus made us a kingdom of priests for God. Priests intercede through Christ on behalf of God's people.

    James 5:16; Proverbs 15:8, 29 - the prayers of the righteous (the saints) have powerful effects. This is why we ask for their prayers. How much more powerful are the saints’ prayers in heaven, in whom righteousness has been perfected.

    1 Tim 2:5-6 - therefore, it is because Jesus Christ is the one mediator before God that we can be subordinate mediators. Jesus is the reason. The Catholic position thus gives Jesus the glory. He does it all but loves us so much He desires our participation.
     
  16. Alive in Christ

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    Lori...

    I said...

    There was a time when Mary came to Jesus regarding something that she was very concerned about.

    Jesus response to her was...

    And from that point on Mary pretty much fades into the background...rarely even mentioned...until the very end when Christ was crucified.

    She was a humble young girl, whom God chose to bring Christ into the world as a human.

    She is no "Queen"

    She is no "Mediatrix"

    She is no prayer *go between* by which God will here us.

    She was NEVER *assumed* and resurrected bodily into Heaven as the Cult of Catholicism demonically says she was.

    She is no prayer partner.

    She was Christs earthly mother. Period.


    They are feeding you lies.
     
  17. lori4dogs

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    "Woman, what have I to do with you? I must be about my fathers buisiness."

    He honored her by performing His first miracle.

    This taken from the Diocese of Washington Newsletter:

    "A little study of culture reveals that his response to his mother is not disrespectful but is in fact a sign of respect and readiness to comply with her request. In order to understand this we need to look at the cultural context of Jesus’ remark.

    In the first place Jesus is using a Jewish expression as he speaks to his mother. The English translation we use at Mass renders it rather poorly. The Greek text of the Jewish expression is τί ἐμοὶ καὶ σοί (ti emoi kai soi) which is literally rendered: &quot;What to me and to thee?&quot; What this expression does is to denote a relationship between the one who is asking and the one who is asked. In effect it is something that someone says when they are reluctant to do what the asker wants but, based on their respect for the one who asks, they agree to do it. Maybe the closest English expression is, &quot;What is that between friends?&quot; or &quot;You don’t even have to ask!&quot;

    So in this interaction between Jesus and Mary we donote some reluctance on Jesus’ part for his hour had not yet come. And yet, because it is his mother who asks he does it. After stating his reluctance he says,&quot;But what is that betweeen you and me?&quot; Mary clearly takes it as an affirmation not a rebuke for she never misses a beat and turns right to the steward and says, &quot;Do whatever he tells you&quot; (jn 2:5)."
     
    #17 lori4dogs, Feb 24, 2010
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  18. lori4dogs

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    Matt. 17:1-3; Mark 9:4; Luke 9:30-31 – deceased Moses and Elijah appear at the Transfiguration to converse with Jesus in the presence of Peter, James and John (these may be the two “witnesses” John refers to in Rev. 11:3). Nothing in Scripture ever suggests that God abhors or cuts off communication between the living (they are not dead but alive) in heaven and the living on earth. To the contrary, God encourages communication within the communion of saints. Moses and Elijah’s appearance on earth also teach us that the saints in heaven have capabilities that far surpass our limitations on earth.
     
  19. BobRyan

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    1. According to the Bible - Elijah never died he was taken directly to heaven without dying.

    2. Even so - there is no example in all of scripture of anyone praying to a "never did die" Elijah -- much less praying someone that was actually dead.

    3. Moses is referenced in the book of Jude -- and there Jude quotes the book the "Assumption of Moses" where Michael and Satan are in debate over the fact that Michael is about to raise Moses from the dead and Moses is about to be assumed bodily - "alive" into heaven.

    So there is at least "a case" for Moses also being every bit as "alive" in Matt 17 as was Elijah.

    But in no case do we see anyone praying to Moses OR Elijah in heaven - instead in Matt 17 we find that they must be physically present IN PERSON to have that level of communication. They give no statement that they can go to some other place in the Universe and still "hear you" praying or talking to them.

    Which shoots the whole prayers to the dead idea in the head. (so to speak)

    In the parable of Lazarus in Luke 16 the request is made of the DEAD - that someone should go back from the dead and warn the living - notice that in that parable (told by Christ) the point is made that in order to do that - they would have to RISE FROM THE DEAD.

    Again - shooting the whole - "but we just want to talk to them while they are dead" idea in the head.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  20. lori4dogs

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    "Not only is it worshiping someone other than God, but it is akin to consulting a familiar spirit and communing with the dead."

    We do neither commune 'with the dead', nor do we worship the LIVING saints in heaven.
     

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