The Catholics link to Idolatry from Ancient Baylon

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by john6:63, Nov 19, 2003.

  1. john6:63

    john6:63
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    May 2, 2003
    Messages:
    886
    Likes Received:
    0
    I haven’t been able to find the chapter 6 of The Book of Baruch in the Apocrypha. I later found out that chapter 6 was originally a separate work called the Letter of Jeremiah. I did a search on the letter of Jeremiah and found chapter 6, which I am discussing here.

    Click here for The Letter of Jeremiah

    Letter of Jeremiah or Baruch 6:4-6
    Click here for a statue of Mary being carried in procession.

    Letter of Jeremiah or Baruch 6:9
    Letter of Jeremiah or Baruch 6:12
    Click here for satutes with crowns and dressed in robes.

    Letter of Jeremiah or Baruch 6:19
    Click here for pics of nuns with candels.
    Picture

    So, according to the 6th Chapter of Baruch or the Letter of Jeremiah, the ancient pagan Babylonians crowned their statues with crowns of gold or silver, carried them in procession on their shoulders, dressed them with regal clothing, and lit great numbers of candles to these statues of gold, silver, stone and wood. Modern Babylon, the Roman Catholic Church, does exactly and precisely the same to honor its statues of Mary, Jesus and what it calls Saints.

    Is there a connection here?
     
  2. GraceSaves

    GraceSaves
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2002
    Messages:
    2,631
    Likes Received:
    0
    From the same article you used as a source:

    Catholics do not worship Mary. They do show her great respect and honor for her role in salvation history, however. The Bible is clear about this, Father Linsky said. "We worship God alone. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. Him alone shall you adore. Him alone shall you bow down in front of because worship is for God and no other. The Bible tells you, 'I am a jealous God.'

    "So brothers and sisters, if you leave here and you have the foolish temerity to tell someone we came to the Catholic Church to worship Mary, you are wrong. But you did come this day to give her the great veneration and the respect that she deserves."
     
  3. john6:63

    john6:63
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    May 2, 2003
    Messages:
    886
    Likes Received:
    0
    The Catholic priest is arguing from authority. You need to quit listening to what others say and rely upon the Holy Spirit through prayer to guide you in truth.

    The Ten Commandments, which was written by God’s, own finger prohibits graven images in very explicit terms. Catholics openly parade these statues in procession and are venerated by Catholics, which is an open and direct contradiction to Gods commandment. If a Catholic priest tells you that’s not idol worship, then you need to go to Gods Word, The Bible, which is the source of right and wrong, truth and error. It is an instruction book for those who call themselves Christian (2 Tim. 3:16). You maybe surprised at what you may learn.

    Now, back to the original question. The letter of Jeremiah records the actions the Babylonians took regarding their idol worship. Does this not disturb you one bit, that this type of actions from the Catholic Church is a page straight from the Babylonian era? Is there a connection between the two as described by Jeremiah?
     
  4. MikeS

    MikeS
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2003
    Messages:
    873
    Likes Received:
    0
    If that were actually the way it worked, there would be only one Protestant church, not umpteen thousand. That's why we rely on the pillar and foundation of the truth to guide us in truth.

    I'm sure the Babylonians prayed also. And worshipped in special worship buildings. And made music in their worship. And had books of holy writings. Doesn't that disturb you one bit?

    You want to know the connection? The connection is that we were made to worship God. It's in our nature. The Babylonians were simply expressing their human nature. They just hadn't been told of the one and only proper object of worship. Catholics have been told of God, the one and only proper object of worship. In fact, it was Catholics who told you folks. That's the connection.
     
  5. trying2understand

    trying2understand
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2001
    Messages:
    3,316
    Likes Received:
    0
    Does it bother me?

    No. You are making superfical comparisons.

    Catholics do not confuse statues with idols.

    No Catholic believes that a statue is a god.

    This thread is just another rehash of the same old tired claim that Catholics worship idols.

    Many Christian beliefs can be found in ancient pagan beliefs. Does that make them the same?
     
  6. john6:63

    john6:63
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    May 2, 2003
    Messages:
    886
    Likes Received:
    0

    Superficial comparisons? Did you even read the Letter of Jeremiah? The Catholics are doing the exact same as the Babylonians did. The Catholics maybe worshipping the same God as I, but in a totally different manner that contradicts Gods word.


    Maybe your confused b/c the Catholics completely disregard or omit the second commandment of God. They then spilt the ninth commandment into two to complete ten.

    CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, THE TEN COMMANDMENTS

    Exodus 20:4
    A graven image is a statue and is then an idol when one treats it as did the Babylonians did. Again compare the Letter of Jeremiah to the practices of the Catholics.

    Question. Keeping Exodus 20:4 in mind, what if I created a statue of the now deceased legendary College Football coach Gen Robert Neyland of the Tennessee Volunteers and I lit candles at it’s feet and prayed to the general and paraded the statue up and down my block. Would God then be jealous? I would say so.

    So what is the difference if I were to create a statue of Peter of Mary and treat it the same? Didn’t God explicitly say not to make any graven image or likeness of any thing that is in heaven… I would say that Peter and Mary are in heaven and thus they would qualify as a direct contradiction to the second commandment of God.

    Why did the Catholics omit the sixth chapter of Baruch? Why did the Catholics omit the second commandment and divide commandment nine into two?
     
  7. Jerry Shugart

    Jerry Shugart
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2003
    Messages:
    952
    Likes Received:
    0
    GraceSaves,

    If those who follow Rome do not worship Mary,why would the Pope himself speak of "Marian Worship"?:

    At the moment that Jesus entrusts his mother to St. John, "it is possible to
    understand the authentic meaning of Marian worship in the ecclesial community
    ... which furthermore is based on the will of Christ.
    ("Vatican Information Service",May 7,1997).

    http://www.cin.org/archives/cintuus/199705/0003.html

    In His grace,--Jerry
     
  8. MikeS

    MikeS
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2003
    Messages:
    873
    Likes Received:
    0
  9. GraceSaves

    GraceSaves
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2002
    Messages:
    2,631
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yes, it prohibits the worship of them as strange gods. I, as a faithful Catholic Christian, have yet to worship any statue as if it were God. So sorry.

    I see. So the Holy Spirit led you to read his heart like this, and determine if he is worshipping or not? Friend, that is not the Holy Spirit. That is your personal judgement of another actions, and calling him a liar. In fact, if one claims to not be worshipping something, how can he truly be doing it? When Peter denied knowing the Lord, was he worshipping him? How can one disown something and yet worship it at the same time?

    Veneration is honor, not adoration.

    I wouldn't participate if I wasn't certain that I was acting in accordance with the will of God.

    God commanded the Israelites to make a golden ark, with large golden cherubim on top. It was carried on the shoulders of men as they paraded around the city of Jerhico, striking fear into the hearts of the enemy. Catch the drift?

    Unless we are worshipping false Gods, you have no argument. And we aren't, so you don't.

    I went to the link, and it provided Scriptures and commandeded to have "no strange gods before me." I see no ommition, only a lie on your part. I am not confused nor ignorant of the full commandment of God and its meaning.

    The Babylonians believed those statues TO BE GODS. We do not, and thus the distinction is destroyed at this point.

    The praise of any saint is because of the goodness of God, not because of the saint. It is praise of the one true God, in the same way is saying, "THANK YOU GOD FOR THIS GREAT PLANET YOU HAVE GIVEN US!" Likewise we praise God for the heroes of the Church that He has given us as role models to point us continually to His Son, Jesus Christ.

    If you believe a saint's feast day is devoid of worship of God, you are sorely mistaken; it is filled to the brim with praise for God.

    No, he said Heaven, and earth, and below the earth. So I guess Mount Rushmore is out of the picture too. Don't dare look upon it with awe, because you're worshipping a false God! Graven images are not to be used as idols; graven images themselves are not evil, or else God was condemning art.

    Why did you omit the whole book of Baruch? I thin you're hardly in a position to talk about ommition.

    Am I mistaken? Did God ACTUALLY number them in Scriptures? Oh, no, I was right: He did not. The numbering for 1/2 and 9/10 are arbitrary, because if you are having no other gods (1), then you are having no strange gods (2). They are stating the same thing: you can only have one God.
     
  10. Brother Adam

    Brother Adam
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2001
    Messages:
    4,427
    Likes Received:
    0
    Statue does not = graven image.

    please. This isn't even worth an argument.
     
  11. GraceSaves

    GraceSaves
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2002
    Messages:
    2,631
    Likes Received:
    0
    BROTHER ADAM!!!

    Haven't talked to you in so long! I see Teresa online from time to time, but not you. [​IMG] Hope life is treating you well and the Lord is showering His blessings on you! [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  12. john6:63

    john6:63
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    May 2, 2003
    Messages:
    886
    Likes Received:
    0

    Right, Israel, by God’s sanction and instructions, carried the Ark of the Covenant in procession, which contained what? The Ten commandments of God written on tables of stone by God’s own finger, which btw prohibited graven images in very clear terms. In addition God detailed instructions of the construction of the Ark, which included two gold cherubs covering an area known as the ‘Mercy Seat.’

    The Ark of the Covenant is where God manifested His presence on earth. The Ark went ahead of the Israelites whenever they traveled. The Ark also was the center of worship when it resided in the Tabernacle in a special place known as the Holy of Holies and was the most sacred object in the Tabernacle. The Ark was also used as protection in battle.

    Even the Book of Numbers 21:8-9, God sanctioned a symbol, not an idol, which could be looked to in faith and be saved. God didn’t sanction the creating of statues of Mary and the Saints.




    That’s funny…you still didn’t answer WHY Exodus 20:4 is omitted from the ‘A Traditional Catechetical Formula’ side of the link I provided. Exodus 20:3 covers the ‘no strange gods.’ But where is Exodus 20:4, you know the ‘graven image’ verse?



    No He said Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth

    Peter and Mary are in Heaven. The statue in your church is an image that is in Heaven above.


    Don’t answer a question with a question. I’m curious why the last chapter of Baruch is omitted. Either you know or you don’t.
     
  13. john6:63

    john6:63
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    May 2, 2003
    Messages:
    886
    Likes Received:
    0
    So Brother Adam, what’s your definition of a ‘graven image.’ If statues aren’t a ‘graven image’ then what were the statues the Babylonians had?
     
  14. trying2understand

    trying2understand
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2001
    Messages:
    3,316
    Likes Received:
    0
    Just curious, if a "saved" politican or sports figure, etc., were to die, should we run aaround smashing all the statues, busts, and paintings of them?

    For that matter when a "saved" person in your church dies, does everyone destroy all of the photos of the deceased? They are after all in Heaven, right?

    [ November 19, 2003, 04:10 PM: Message edited by: trying2understand ]
     
  15. john6:63

    john6:63
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    May 2, 2003
    Messages:
    886
    Likes Received:
    0
    I’m not saying that you’re worshiping these statues of Mary and the saints as ‘gods.’ I’m saying that the Catholic Church incorporated the same traditions that the Babylonians used regarding their statues, which none are supported biblically. See my opening post with the link to the Letter of Jeremiah.
     
  16. john6:63

    john6:63
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    May 2, 2003
    Messages:
    886
    Likes Received:
    0
    First, I don’t have any statues, busts or paintings of any of my deceased love ones. Second the statues of politicians or sports figures aren’t paraded around and treated such as the Babylonians treated their statues. If they are, I have no part in it, because God makes it clear that this is a sin. The pictures I have of my deceased loved ones are looked upon in remembrance only.

    If you want to have a statue of Mary or a Saint, then fine. But don’t hold a tradition that the Babylonians held regarding their statues. Or you’ll be defending your faith constantly, b/c it’s not biblical. I don’t worship or parade the cross that’s hanging in my Churches sanctuary. I look at the cross as a remembrance only.
     
  17. GraceSaves

    GraceSaves
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2002
    Messages:
    2,631
    Likes Received:
    0
    Brother,

    We look at the cross as a remembrance only. Carrying it in a procession does not change that. Reverence is reverence, regardless.

    Further, you seem to say it's okay to do that with the Ark of the Covenant because God ordained it specifically to be done.

    That leaves two choices:

    1) God does not have a problem with the procession of images that represent Him and His glory, since they direct one's mind to God, or

    2) God asked man to break the law that God set forth, therefore undermining the whole moral process. If the law can be broken simply because "God said so," then God Himself voids the law, and any yahoo can kill someone because "God said so," and you won't be able to argue it, because you believe God allows the breaking of His own law.

    I'm betting on number one.
     
  18. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    A graven image is a statue and is then an idol when one treats it as did the Babylonians did. Again compare the Letter of Jeremiah to the practices of the Catholics.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    GraceSaves said --
    The Babylonians believed those statues TO BE GODS. We do not, and thus the distinction is destroyed at this point.

    Actually - Budhists Hindus ets all declare that their images "represent" those whom they pray to - something the Hebrews never did - but something the Catholics have adopted.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  19. MikeS

    MikeS
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2003
    Messages:
    873
    Likes Received:
    0
    Dittos, Brother Adam! Nice to see you back. Same old same old around here! [​IMG]
     
  20. GraceSaves

    GraceSaves
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2002
    Messages:
    2,631
    Likes Received:
    0
    I state again, the Hebrews and Isrealites who died in the faith were not yet in Heaven until the coming of Christ with His death and resurrection, which opened to the deceased the gates of Heaven. Those who had died are now in eternal joy with our Heavenly Father!

    Bob bolded this portion because it is terribly worded, and it looks like it says something it doesn't (I had to reread it several times to grasp what he was saying).

    Indeed, they did not make that distinction because there were no saints in Heaven, as I have pointed out. But this is not an either/or situation, but a both/and. We realize and adore the God who is the source of everything as well having the saints in Heaven intercede for us on our behalf. the "we must" was in regards to "making the distinction;" this surely follows from the grammar, although its placement was terrible to give it an improper emphasis.

    And we do INDEED make this distinction, because there is infinite separation in the veneration of the faithful departed who are alive with the Lord in Heaven and GOD HIMSELF. ALLELUIA!
     

Share This Page

Loading...