The changing of Behemoth and Leviathan....

Very good point, JeffM. Very good point. When was the last time you saw a fire-breathing crocodile???

 

Love that one! Can I use it?

 

Jeff, Can you list the versions that have changed these words in the text itself?

KJVO's persistently say that marginal readings provided by the KJV translators have no bearing. I went to Biblegateway.com and looked the references up in a few different versions. Several of them give a margin note that says these are unknown animals. Others suggest a possible identity. All put behemoth and leviathan in the text.

 

Nothing's been changed. That's what they were.

The word "behemoth" was translated from the Hebrew word behmowth (a term borrowed from the egyiptians), which means "water ox". "Water Ox" is what the Hebrews called the animla we today know as the hippopotamus.

The word "leviathan" livyathan is similar. It was used to refer to a dragon or sea serpent. The animal we call the crocodile was called such by the Hebrews.

Understanding these words to mean such does not in any way support or compromise YEC beliefs, not does it support or compromise non YEC beliefs.

 

Thanks Jeff.

I think this has been discussed with John before. It still mystifies me how he can hold the assertion that these are hippos and crocs considering the surrounding texts. The words may have been borrowed but the definitions must have changed since they don't fit the descriptions given in the Bible.

 

You've clearly never seen a cedar tree. A cedar tree is long and skinny, with scraggly branches. Just like a hippo's tail.

Now, if you think it's a dinosaur, then there's a problem. Dinosaurs had internal sexual organs, like modern reptiles. The behemoth had testicles, as described in Job.

There's never been any animal that breathes fire.... unless you believe in fire breathing dragons. The latter part of this chapter becomes analogous. Job gives the leviathan properties of evil, and then goes on to say that God defeats the leviathan.


Snce Job was written long after the time of Noah, you can't make the claim that fire breathing dragons died in the flood.

It's also important to know that Job lived in the land of Uz, which was in or near the land of Edom. This area extended both southwest and southeast of the Dead Sea, in an area that is now mostly a desert. Job would have definitely encountered hippos and crocodiles. It is not at all unbiblical to attibute these animals to Job. Notice in the story that after the Lord spoke these things to Job, he repented in dust and ashes. God was not telling Job about a sea monster or a whale or crocodile, He was speaking of the sin of pride. Pride is the monster that gets in the way of doing God's will, now as much as it was then.

[ May 21, 2004, 07:14 PM: Message edited by: Johnv ]

 

Job was written before the flood. Job is the oldest book in the Bible.

Where the book of Job is located in the Bible has no relevence to when it was written.

Job did not have pride. Pride is a sin. The first verse of the Book of Job says:

Job.1
[1] There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.


He would not be perfect and upright if he were prideful.

 

This reminds me of the "re'em = unicorn" discussions.

 

If the behemoth is a large dinosaur, how can he lie under lotus plants and be concealed by reeds (Job 40:21-22)?

PS: I'm not Baptist, and previously thought I couldn't post here. However, according to the "Simple Rules for Posting on the Versions Forum", non-Baptists are only prohibited from starting threads in this forum, which I have no intention of doing. If my understanding of this is in error, please let me know.

 

The oceans are pretty large compared with the continents, and we hafta take THREE dimensions into account when looking for water critters.

Such dinosaurs as tylosaur and mosasaur could qualify as leviathan or behemoth and still be living, as God didn't destroy all AQUATIC life in the Flood.

Some modern translators tried to equate these animals with those known worldwide. They possibly made the same booboo as did the AV translators who rendered re'em as "unicorn" or sa'ir as goat in some places, the adjective hairy in another, and satyr in yet another.

Thing is, NO DOCTRINE is affected by the exact or inexact definitions of the animals. A Jewish friend has told me that the positive identification of several species of animals named in OT Hebrew is a daunting task at best.

Just as re'em is used to denote a large, powerful animal, leviathan and behemoth are similarly used, with leviathan being a water-dwelling air-breather. This is the message and the theme of those Scriptures, that large, powerful animals not taken by ordinary hunting methods of the day were involved. We cannot know if the ancients were referring to animals familiar to us or not.

 

Wrong. We have NOTHING from before the Flood. Nothing. </font>[/QUOTE]Let me rephrase that: What I meant to say was:

Job lived before the flood. Job is the oldest book in the Bible.

That's what I get for posting in a hurry, LOL.

 

Job was a contemporary of the Patriarchs, most likely Jacob. Jacob lived roughly 1800 years before Christ. The flood was roughly a thousand years before Job.

However, if Job is the author of the book which bears his name, and I have no reason to believe he was not, then it does predate Moses by about 350 years making it the oldest book in the bible provided you discount the possibility that Moses worked from written records passed down from Adam, Noah, Shem, Terah, Ishmael, Isaac, Esau, and Jacob.