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Featured The Children whom God hath given me

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Iconoclast, Jun 21, 2015.

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  1. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    The children that have been given are found in the nations...they are scattered worldwide....in all the ends of the earth....

    50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.

    51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;

    52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad
     
  2. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    DHK

    .

    You are a suspect DHK based on past performances.

    Because it is clearly described in scripture.

    The moral law was already in place.God gave Moses additional instruction as a schoolmaster to lead us to Christ.

    Another clown post now?:laugh: You cannot help yourself can you? The instructions given to them speak to the church in that God is in complete control of its growth.


    That speaks of God building the church.

    No... I do not fear it having escaped it now.
    I do....biblical illiteracy is very high right now.

    No...it is right out in the open on Christian radio with many time wasting
    sermons speculating and looking for an anti Christ instead of Jesus.

    It affects most all your posts...you Rmac......Beamup has a double dose of the infection.
    Others have been taught it and left it.
    Others hold it until they learn a bit more, but they do not yet see what the scriptures point to as an alternative.

    ."

    When I speak with Jews ironically I use the same verses used to deprogram dispensationalists. From the Ot I show gentile inclusion in the promises.

    I show from Jonah how Israel did not want gentiles included,,,,I show from Isa 40-66 gentiles flowing in .

    lk 24 shows that the whole bible was about Jesus.....and is about Jesus now.

    Sure...Israel was the earthly shadow of the heavenly reality.
    He prayed for Israel the way I would pray for Roman Catholics.....:thumbsup:

    The Church is the reality of what Israel pointed to.
    Israel in the OT had the root promises which have blossomed into the fruit of the NT. church.



    .

    You repeat this over and over and yet miss the point of it.

    1] unsaved Jews

    2] unsaved gentiles

    3] saved church members ,both jew and gentile...

    see...quite simple....jews had the word ,did not obey. Gentiles did not have the word yet had remnants of the moral law in the conscience but not enough to save them

    The church is saved by word and Spirit....3 groups


    The church did not replace or become a continuation of the Israel. That is plain error.


    you know where it was.....acts 7 deut18

    .

    There was not a nt church in the ot....but there was an ot church an "assembly of God's people in seed form and type.



    A called out assembly is a church.... just not exactly the same as the NT one

    It helps because this outline shows how OT Israel failed, but Nt Israel will not fail.
     
  3. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    Just as in Matthew we see Jesus words in Luke 5:32 "I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."

    2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

    God is giving all the opportunity to repent, Christ came to call sinners to repentance. Were the Pharisees sinners? Were the Religious leaders sinners? Of course they were did they come to repentance?

    So if Christ mission was to bring sinners to repentance back to your question did He fail?

    No why because everyone is responsible for their own repentance, we see the standard has always been the same.

    Whosoever believes that makes it a conscious choice always has been.

    Joel 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call.

    The choice in the O.T. was to call upon the the Lord and it was whosoever, salvation came by Grace through faith for them. Not because of their being born a Jew, not because they followed or couldn't follow the Law, whosoever called upon the Lord would be delivered.

    Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
    Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

    Again a conscious choice.


    Then we see Jesus made it real clear that it is the choice of the person not that God made an irresistible ability for man to call upon Him,

    Do see it takes the person to believe God doesn't force them to believe. But because knew them in eternity past.

    Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
    4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
    5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,"

    Why did He chose us befroe the foundation of the world?

    Romans 8:27-30,

    27 "And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
    28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
    29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
    30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

    Notice HE searches the heart when according to Ephesians 1:4 He chose us before the foundation of the world why Romans says because He foreknew us.

    Abraham was chosen not the day God called him out of UR but before the foundation of the world so too the prodigal. but Jesus too was chosen to be the propitiation for sin except as He says those who believe not are condemned already and why? Jesus said the unbeliever is not condemned by His sins but is condemned "because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."
    Very clear sin is not the issue except the sin of unbelief.
     
  4. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    revmwc


    This falsehood speaks against the heart of the gospel.

    Jesus saves us from our sins....all of them, even unbelief.

    The unsaved are NOT saved from their sins, and they die in them.
     
  5. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    Jesus made it real clear that it is the choice of the person not that God made an irresistible ability for man to call upon Him,

    Those who call upon Christ are redeemed but O.T. and N.T. make it clear it is a conscious choice, Joel 2:32 says "whosoever shall call" does God force them to call upon Christ?
    Acts 2:21 states "whosoever shall call" and Romans 10:13 "whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." the shall be redeemed, but the penalty for the sins they committed was propitiated, they just reject the one who made the payment and for that they are condemned already.

    Do you see it takes the person to believe, God doesn't force them to believe. But because He knew them in eternity past.

    Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
    4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
    5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,"

    Why did He chose us before the foundation of the world?

    Romans 8:27-30,

    27 "And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
    28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
    29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
    30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

    Notice HE searches the heart when according to Ephesians 1:4 "He chose us before the foundation of the world" why, Romans says because He foreknew us. Knew us ahead of time. We see that with one disciple, John 1:48, "Nathanael saith unto him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him, Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee."
    Jesus was no where near the fig tree when He saw Nathanael but He knew His heart. But it goes further according to Paul in Ephesians 1:4, and Romans 8:29, He knew Nathanael in eternity past before the foundation ofthe world. What He wanted Nathanael to understand is that when Nathanael was in his private place of worship He was with him and knew him there.

    Abraham was chosen not the day God called him out of UR but before the foundation of the world.
    Jesus too was chosen to be the propitiation for sin before the foundation of the World. As He says those who believe not are condemned already why? Jesus said the unbeliever is not condemned by His sins but is condemned "because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."
    Very clear sin is not the issue except the sin of unbelief.
     
  6. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    revmwc;


    Jesus came to save His people from their sins. What you post is a falsehood.

    Jesus died for all the sins of His people, even the sin of unbelief.

    Unbelievers die in their sins plural...all of their sins.

    The wages of sin is death.

    Hebrews 2 explains the extent of this salvation....It is the CHILDREN given by the Father to the Son....no more no less.
     
    #66 Iconoclast, Jun 24, 2015
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  7. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    So Jesus spoke an untruth and He saves those who are condemned already whether they believe or not because you say
    Jesus said "he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God" that is the sin of unbelief and is not forgiven. Why because that person refuses to believe on the only begotten son.

    Jesus said,
    That is denying the work of the Holy Spirit, those who die without having followed the leadership of the Holy Spirit in believing on Christ are not forgiven. The Holy Spirit brings conviction upon people but once they continually refuse to follow His convicting power and die without having turned to Christ they are condemned.

    Christ made it real clear unbelief sends one to hell not sin. Because if sin did we would all be doomed because we all fall short of the glory of God and we all sin as believers we confess that sin. But if our sins sent us to hell then it would be as many Holiness churches teach every time we sin we would lose our salvation, but that isn't how it is because He that believeth is not condemned Jesus said. Sin is not the issue for salvation it is the Son and have you received Him or Rejected Him, have you believed or not believed that is what condemns you according to Jesus.

    Very clear if you let the Spirit be your guide. Unbelief sends a person to the Lake of Fire.
     
    #67 revmwc, Jun 24, 2015
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  8. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    revmwc


    never , I would not even suggest such a thing.

    What you do not understand is salvation ...what it is and what it is from.


    Saving belief places us in saving union with Christ.

    Unbelief is natural to natural men.....they perish in unbelief without hope and without Christ...They die in their sins because there is never a time where God's wrath has been turned away.




    You do not understand the sin described as the blasphemy of the Spirit which occurred when Jesus was on earth .

    Millions have perished "in their sins" before the incarnation, and even today....it is not a belief /unbelief question.....

    It is a Covenant death issue...it is about the Children
     
    #68 Iconoclast, Jun 24, 2015
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  9. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Folks, limited atonement is unbiblical and has no support in scripture. Christ died for the many, meaning everyone but Christ, and Christ died for all, meaning all mankind. Christ became the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world, meaning all mankind.

    Yes Christ died for the church, but the church is part of all mankind, so Christ died both for the church and all mankind. Any other view must nullify verse after verse.
     
  10. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    O.T. salvation came according to Joel 2:32 says "whosoever shall call" that is they had to believe in the Savior who was coming. They were saved by Grace through Faith. They were saved from the penalty which was attached to sin, which is death.

    Believers today still suffer from Physical death, so we are not currently saved from dying physically. We will be raised from physical death but so too will the unbeliever.
    We are born spiritually dead and upon belief in the Lord Jesus we become alive Spiritually.

    But what Death are we saved from?
    What death did Jesus conquer?


    Let's see if we can find it,

    Seems we are saved from the second death, who are those who overcome and how do we overcome, by Believing on the Son, Jesus and calling upon the Lord.

    We overcome by Faith and those who overcome are not touched by the second death. We are saved from spending eternity separated from God in the Lake of Fire. Who ends up in the Lake of Fire the unbelieving who are sinners that is true but what is their Crime? What sends them to the Lake of fire?

    So was there name not written in the book of Life because of all the sins they committed or because they failed to overcome that is believe on the Lord Jesus Christ?

    They failed to overcome they failed to believe, again we see

    Very clear unbelief sends them to the Lake of fire. They die the second death which is eternal separation from God and we as Believers have overcome the world and overcome death that is the Second Death because of Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.
     
    #70 revmwc, Jun 24, 2015
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  11. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    You have no "folks" Van.
    Particular redemption is true and comforting doctrine found all over Scripture.
    Many does not = all i.e. each and every. It means particular ones --the elect.
    Propitiation does not =means of salvation.
    Your view is absurd. The Church is indeed part of mankind; yet Christ did not die for each and every person in the past present and future --He laid down His life on behalf of His Bride --the Church --the elect.

    Your reasoning is unreasonable. You have to come up with something more biblical.
    Your view is typical Arminianism.
     
  12. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    His view is also the view of John and Paul even Peter and lastly even Jesus.

    Jesus told Nicodemus "whosoever believeth in Him (that is the Son)added for clarity shall not perish but have everlasting life." The whosoever is as John says in 1 John 2:2 Jesus became the propitiation for the whole world.
     
    #72 revmwc, Jun 24, 2015
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  13. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    Van was dealing with particular atonement and propitiation.

    John, Paul, Peter and Jesus were decidely not Arminian.
    Not "whosoever" but the believing ones.
    Propitiation is not mentioned in 1 John 5:5.
     
  14. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Thanks RevMWC, Mr Rippon views are detached from reality.

    Folks, limited atonement is unbiblical and has no support in scripture. Christ died for the many, meaning everyone but Christ, and Christ died for all, meaning all mankind. Christ became the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world, meaning all mankind.

    Hebrews 2:9 But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.

    Yes Christ died for the church, but the church is part of all mankind, so Christ died both for the church and all mankind. Any other view must nullify verse after verse.
     
    #74 Van, Jun 24, 2015
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  15. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    sorry meant 1 John 2:2

    But John, Paul, Peter and Jesus taught unlimited atonement.

    I am not Arminin but I also am not a hyper Calvanist.

    Paul taught unlimited atonement and Predsetination because God foreknew us. I believe God foreknew those who would be saved and He foreknew it before the foundation of the world. I also believe that man is totally depraved.

    We were called and elected because of Foreknowledge.

    God's Grace is for all who believe but the convicting of the Holy Spirit can be resisted and rejected by the unbeliever.
    I also believe once a person is saved they are always saved. therefore I align with neither the Arminian view nor the Hyper-Calvanist view, there is a middle ground and the Pastor I grew up under called it Pauline and Paul's teaching of Foreknowledge bringing election and Predestination.

    Of course Calvin didn't teach the 5 points of the Hyper-Calvanist so he was not a hyper calvanist either.
     
  16. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    On the contrary; my views accord with the Word of God.
    Who are you addressing?
    You are being silly and redundant.
    Propitiation has no such definition. Find a Bible commentary that hints at your woeful lack of understanding.
    You are repeating absurdities.

    Christ died for the Church cannot mean He died for each and every.

    What would be the point of saying He died for the Church if the real meaning is He died for everyone? Utter silliness.

    "He died for the Church...and oh, everyone else." That is wacky.

    I suppose in John 17:9 where Christ said He is praying for His own and specifically says "not for the world" you would want to disagree and claim Christ meant to say everyone.
     
  17. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Yet another silly and redundant post from Mr. Rippon.

    Christ laid down His life as a ransom for all (which includes the church).

    Any other view is "wacky."

    Folks, limited atonement is unbiblical and has no support in scripture. Christ died for the many, meaning everyone but Christ, and Christ died for all, meaning all mankind. Christ became the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world, meaning all mankind.

    Hebrews 2:9 But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.

    Yes Christ died for the church, but the church is part of all mankind, so Christ died both for the church and all mankind. Any other view must nullify verse after verse.
     
  18. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    Van is on auto-pilot thinking that repeating his posts word-for-word actually has value.
     
  19. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:
     
  20. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Notice they cannot address the Covenant children so they must b ounce all over the p look ace to avo I don't the clear teaching. ...The passage from Joel was quoted as fulfilled at Pentecost the Lord reigning from the Heavenly Zion and Jerusalem.
     
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