The church didn't replace Israel, Christ did.

TB, I think the vast majority of academic dispensationalists don't dismiss the "pre-Darby" scholars. We disagree with them and their presuppositions, and I, at least, see that as very different. It is not intellectual dishonesty. It is driven by a commitment to the text of Scripture.

Which is not to say that your side doesn't have a commitment to the text, but it is certainly a different approach. I have never been able to grasp the looseness (as I see it) with which your side is willing to handle the text. To me, the text seems to demand more of us.

 

rjprince, Larry et al,

I had decided that reasonable communicating with staunch dispensationalists was becoming a waste of time and therefore was going to redirect my efforts to the unsaved instead, to those who "had ears to hear" about the salvation offered to Christ, which is something I should have been doing more of rather than spending the amount of time that is required to do the research on dispensationalism.



However, afterwards, I came across a 49 page "thesis" written by Tony Warren of "The Mountain Retreat," called 'Amillennialism: A Word Direct From The Scriptures. It changed my mind about continuing on as it was very powerful reading, indeed. I cannot post any more than a short reference to the work as stated in the footnote. I strongly suggest that ALL individuals interested in "End Times" theology take the time to read this as there are serious implications there that even I had never even considered before. Now, for a small portion for reference purposes only;

It's not insignificant that national Israel rejected Christ for the very same reasons that some theologians today reject Amillenialism. They just refused to believe God's truth that "He" was the fulfillment of Old Testament scripture that prophesied of a Messiah who would come and establish His government, rule and righteousness in the kingdom of Israel. Because their Judaic traditions put forth the idea that the prophecy was of a earthly government, ruler, and a dingdom, and that didn't fit what Jesus came to do. That wasn't the Kingdom that the "true" Christ came to establish. Premillennialism, and in a sense Postmillennialism, looks for the very same worldly (carnal) or earthly fulfillment in prophesy. They do not discern or understand that this is the "very same" error that national Israel made. In fact, Premillennialism is 'nothing less' than the old Judaic law bound earthly expectations. It is the age-old Judaic tradion that Christ's Kingdom is an earthly Kingdom taking a form just like the world's kingdoms. In other words, Christ coming to a geographical political nation on earth, to a earthly city, sitting on an physical literal earthly throne, in a literal Temple. None of this was prophesied, and none of it is true.

Theologians have a hard time comprehending that Christ's Kingdom is not meat and drink, and His Holy place not made with hands. These Old Testament realities were "figures" or types pointing to Christ, their fulfillment. The prophecy concerning rebuilding the Temple and the reigning of christ in Israel were not to be interpreted as the world defines terms, but as God defined them."

This, was but a small portion of Warren's 49 pages but, I only had to ponder for a few minutes what Christ had to say on the way to the Cross to those who were expecting a literal and earthly Kingdom rather than a spiritual kingdom:

Again, when Christ's own disciples question him about an earthly kingdom that even they were still expecting to see;

http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/eschatology/israel.shtml

 

Based on this small part of what you have said here, he is misguided on the basic truths. The OT promises were not fulfilled by Christ. Anyone can read the OT and NT and figure that out. That is the problem with the hermeneutic employed by the amill and post mills: They take Scripture and make it mean whatever will fit their system. His use of Luke 24 is typical of this type of reasoning. He changes the plain meaning of the verse. Notice what was fulfilled: all things concerning him. Not all things that were prophesied. There are a some promises that have nothing to do with Christ per se and those must be fulfilled. It is crazy to say that the land promise was fulfilled in Christ. No one, reading with benefit (or detriment) of amill/postmill presuppositions would ever come to that conclusion. And even at that, we have OT prophecies that are not yet fulfilled, as is made plain by the references of hte epistles to future events. When one takes a verse and misuses it as this author did, it inevitably leads to bad theology and a wrong position.

Looking at his first two proof texts, you can see how misguided he is. First, in Romans 9:6, he identifies true Israel as all who believe. Yet in Romans 9, Israel is Israel, and the true Israel is the subset of national Israel which believes. It is not the Gentiles. In his second on Matthew 24 and the "nation" to whom it is given, he plainly ignore the obvious that the nation is the end time Jews which come after the generation from whom it is taken. These end time Jews are prophesied in the OT as those who would accept the Messiah. It cannot be the church because the distinctive characteristics of the church is precisely that it is not a nation, but rather a place where there is no more national distinction. I am sure that i could read further in his articel and identify many more errors, but these will suffice to show that he has brought his position to the Scripture, rather than getting his position from the Scripture.

And you still haven't answered why Christ didn't correct his disciples in Acts 1 when they asked about when the earthly kingdom would come. He doesn't appear to address it either. That is a major stumblingblock in your position. Until these kinds of questions are answered from Scripture, there will be problems.

 

"My kingship is not of this world; my servants would fight, that I might not be handed over to the Jews; but my kingship is not from the world." (Jn 18:36)

No it is not. "Earthly" does not necessarily equal the "cosmos".

The Kingdom of God/Christ is not from this world (the cosmos) but from the heavenlies.

Israel itself was not from this world but from God.

Did it eventually become "just like the world's kingdoms"? Yes, but that will never be so when Christ rules and reigns over the millenial nations.

The kingdom of God can be located on the earth without being of this world (cosmos) or taking a form just like the world's kingdoms..

HankD

 

HankD

I think we are in agreement if you read the context. Warren is essentially disputing the Pre-mil theory of an earthly Kingdom.

Warren has disputed the pre-mil theory which is essentially the same expectations of many of those during Christ's ministry of which he Himself disputed by saying "My Kingdom is NOT of this world...."

 

This is simply not true. All one needs to do is read the OT without the lenses of amillennialism or postmillennialism and this becomes obvious. The reason why the first century Jews expected an earthly kingdom is precisely because that's what the OT told them to expect. Premills are premill because of hte promises of God in teh OT. We believe that God is faithful and will keep those promises.

 

TrailBlazer,

Thanks for the reference. Have found the article on amillennialism as well as articles on Israel and Rev 20. In a very quick overview I see he quotes Bahnsen and Gentry. Have read a good bit from both of them re theonomic postmillennialism as well as the preterist interpretation of Rev and the arguments for an early date of authorship for Rev.

Look forward to being able to evaluate his work. Will take a few days at least, but I always try to find the best presentation of a particular point of view. Because of it’s length I will probably summarize his arguments and my response, possibly on a new thread. HOWEVER, please rest assured that I will not misrepresent his arguments to win a point! That is frequently done on both sides of the issue. If I were in a formal debate setting and my objective was to get a decision for a win, I might resort to those tactics. Please be assured that my objective is to deal fairly with the Word of God and to deal fairly and fully with those who present opposing views. If my position cannot withstand the arguments of those who disagree, I need to either modify my views or abandon them! I made that decision years ago with regard to my theological predispositions and Scripture. I trust that your commitment is similar.

That said, let me say that it is not my goal to get you or anyone else here on this board to concede that I have won a point. My goal is to thoroughly study the Scripture; evaluate different understandings and interpretations; adjust and realign my own understandings to more closely reflect the clear words of the Text; and to more effectively articulate my position and the reasons for it. Please do not think I am trying to win a debate here. That is not my purpose, and if it is yours, consider defining a goal that you can reasonably achieve regardless of how other respond.

Regarding “reasonable communication with staunch dispensationalists” let me say that I am quite willing to concede that it is only possible to argue STRONGLY from Scripture for three dispensations, pre-cross, post-cross, and the “fullness of time” (Eph 3:2; 1:10; Col 1:25). If that qualifies me as a staunch dispensationalist, your definition is too narrow IMHO. Did you read what I said about an exercise in futility, vss iron sharpening iron?


Pastor Larry,

DITTO!!! and Bravo, an excellent response to the brief sections quoted.

 

So then we must intepret OT and NT scripture through the lense of what the 1st century Jews "thought" the OT taught? Is that your basis?

 

TrailBlazer (1/4/05 - 11:33),

In the first block quotation from Warren:

Note how the references not only fail to make his stated point, but they argue against his position in some cases!!!

Col 2:17 – the things that were a shadow were the things related to the ONLY CONDITIONAL MAJOR COVENANT IN THE OT. The Mosaic Covenant was shadow and passed away! Agreed. But the Nation of Israel is not type or shadow and DOES NOT PASS AWAY! We will see that clearly indicated in the Heb 8 passage, next. ALSO PLEASE NOTE THAT THERE IS NOTHING ABOUT THE LAND PROMISES PASSING AWAY OR ABOUT THE THRONE OF DAVID BEING A FIGURATIVE OR ALLEGORICAL STATEMENT!!! (I think I already mentioned that earlier.)

Hebrew 8, and we will not stop at verse 5, but will go on to verses 6-10 which argue AGAINST his position! – The priesthood, the tabernacle, and the sacrifices (vv 2-5) are all part of the MOSAIC COVENANT!!! (Not Abrahamic, not Land, not Davidic!). These were all superceded by Christ. Again notice there is no indication that these other UNCONDITIONAL Covenants were done away or superceded, only the Mosaic. Now, let’s move to the “better covenant” mediated by Christ. Please note that it is not with the church, it is “with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah” (v. 8). Even if there were a CLEAR statement that Israel sometimes means “church”, which there isn’t, or there would be no appeal to Gal 6:16, THERE IS NO INSTANCE OF “THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND THE HOUSE OF JUDAH” in combination ever meaning anyone by literal national Israel! Further, just to make sure there is no misunderstanding as to who is indicated as the parties of the covenant, the writer goes on to specify that these were the ones led out of Egypt, who continued not in the Mosaic covenant, who were then disregarded. But not to worry, for God has not forgotten them, but will bring them under the New Covenant and put His law in their hearts and will forgive their sins and iniquities. Small wonder that Warren does not quote, or reference the rest of the passage. It disproves his point, forcefully! Again, please note that this does not state that Israel is replaced or fulfilled by Christ.

Next, Heb 10:1 – “For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.” GUESS WHAT? MOSAIC LAW, AGAIN. Not Israel, not Abrahamic, Land, or Davidic covenants, but the conditional Mosaic Covenant. Yep, it was done away, annulled, replaced, fulfilled, etc, by Christ. Now there is no more sacrifice, specifically the “sacrifices offered year by year continually” according to the Law. No problem for the Ds here. A bit of a problem for CTs, many of whom argue for the continuance of the Mosaic Law as a “rule of life” for the church. Note some others arguing that the law was not done away from Matt 5:17, no time to deal with here, though.

Continuing in Heb 10, what did Jesus take away? “every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins” - Guess what again, the Mosaic Law. Not Israel, not Judah, not the AC, LC, or DC, but the MC, the conditional one. The others, Abrahamic, Land, Davidic are ALL UNCONDITIONAL!!!

Notice his claim: “The types of Old Testament Israel (Prophets, Jerusalem, Feasts, Priests, the Law, Kingdom, Land, Sacrificial System, Temple, Deliverance, etc.) were all fulfilled in Christ (Luke 24:27)” NOW PLEASE NOTICE THE TEXT OF LUKE 24, “Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.” Pardon me for starting two verses early, wanted to get a more complete context here on this. TELL ME PLEASE, how does he get “the types of OT Israel...” out of any of his proof texts?!?!? The text does not support his conclusion and at some points it REFUTES his conclusion.

This is just the first block you quoted?! Tell me, is HE dealing with the Text of God’s Word in honesty and sincerity? Or is he reading his theology onto the Text and with such interpretations really doing great violence to the clear words of the text?

Back to what you wrote following this first block quote – The Jewish leaders did not reject Christ because they were looking for a physical kingdom instead of a spiritual kingdom, they rejected Him because they were not willing to submit the righteousness that both Jesus and John demanded. They rejected Him because they did not want to lose their position and power under the Romans!

This next one really got to me!

Please pardon the boldness of my declaration. It is not intended to be offensive. It is intended to refute your words forcefully. Judaic tradition... None of this was prophesied, and none of it is true. THIS IS BOLD FACE DENIAL OF CLEAR WORDS OF THE SCRIPTURE!!!

Isa 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD’S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. 3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

Isa 11:1 ¶ And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: 2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; 3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: 4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. 5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins. 6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. 7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. 8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice’ den. 9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

Isa 40:1 Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God. 2 Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of the LORD’S hand double for all her sins. 3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. 4 Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain: 5 And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

Isa 52:7 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth! 8 Thy watchmen shall lift up the voice; with the voice together shall they sing: for they shall see eye to eye, when the LORD shall bring again Zion. 9 Break forth into joy, sing together, ye waste places of Jerusalem: for the LORD hath comforted his people, he hath redeemed Jerusalem. 10 The LORD hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God.

Isa 61:4 And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations. 5 And strangers shall stand and feed your flocks, and the sons of the alien shall be your plowmen and your vinedressers. 6 But ye shall be named the Priests of the LORD: men shall call you the Ministers of our God: ye shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, and in their glory shall ye boast yourselves. 7 For your shame ye shall have double; and for confusion they shall rejoice in their portion: therefore in their land they shall possess the double: everlasting joy shall be unto them. 8 For I the LORD love judgment, I hate robbery for burnt offering; and I will direct their work in truth, and I will make an everlasting covenant with them. 9 And their seed shall be known among the Gentiles, and their offspring among the people: all that see them shall acknowledge them, that they are the seed which the LORD hath blessed.

Jer 23:Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. 6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that they shall no more say, The LORD liveth, which brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt; 8 But, The LORD liveth, which brought up and which led the seed of the house of Israel out of the north country, and from all countries whither I had driven them; and they shall dwell in their own land.

Jer 30:4 And these are the words that the LORD spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah.
5 For thus saith the LORD; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace. 6 Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness? 7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob’s trouble; but he shall be saved out of it. 8 For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him: 9 But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them. 10 Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the LORD; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid. 11 For I am with thee, saith the LORD, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet will I not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished.

Jer 33:14 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will perform that good thing which I have promised unto the house of Israel and to the house of Judah. 15 In those days, and at that time, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land. 16 In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The LORD our righteousness. 17 For thus saith the LORD; David shall never want a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel; 18 Neither shall the priests the Levites want a man before me to offer burnt offerings, and to kindle meat offerings, and to do sacrifice continually. 19 And the word of the LORD came unto Jeremiah, saying, 20 Thus saith the LORD; If ye can break my covenant of the day, and my covenant of the night, and that there should not be day and night in their season; 21 Then may also my covenant be broken with David my servant, that he should not have a son to reign upon his throne; and with the Levites the priests, my ministers. 22 As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, neither the sand of the sea measured: so will I multiply the seed of David my servant, and the Levites that minister unto me.

Ezek 34:23 And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd. 24 And I the LORD will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them; I the LORD have spoken it. 25 And I will make with them a covenant of peace, and will cause the evil beasts to cease out of the land: and they shall dwell safely in the wilderness, and sleep in the woods. 26 And I will make them and the places round about my hill a blessing; and I will cause the shower to come down in his season; there shall be showers of blessing. 27 And the tree of the field shall yield her fruit, and the earth shall yield her increase, and they shall be safe in their land, and shall know that I am the LORD, when I have broken the bands of their yoke, and delivered them out of the hand of those that served themselves of them.

Ezek 36:23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes. 24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. 25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Ezek 37:24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them. 25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children’s children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever. 26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. 27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 28 And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.

Ezek 39:25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name; 26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid. 27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies’ lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations; 28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there. 29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

ALL OF THESE WITHOUT EVEN GOING TO DANIEL, THE MINOR PROPHETS, OR THE PSALMS.

“NONE OF IT WAS PROPHESIED AND NONE OF IT IS TRUE”

That dog won’t hunt. That line won’t sell. I may have been born at night, but it was not last night.

Blazer, Sorry, I only made it through a few paragraphs of the post to which I was responding.

I would like to see a substantive response to the passages I have cited. But, of course, if you want to say it is all allegorical, we really have nothing to discuss, do we.

And you suggest that with one phrase in John 18, Jesus revokes all of these promises?

I plan to respond to John 18:36 later this evening.

 

No, the point is that the first century Jews had no axe to grind. They were merely reading the words and understanding what they were saying. They weren't filtering it through a system or an attempt to arrive at a conclusion. If the OT had not taught an earthly kingdom, the first century Jews would have never come up with that position. They had that position because that is what the OT said.

 

Grasshopper,

Welcome to the fray.

Nope. On the basis of the BIBLE. That is a novel thought, is it not? You are welcome to deal with the passages I cite as well.

 

rjprince,

I will consider your post although.But there is SO MUCH substance to his "thesis" that I am not sure how wise it would be considering the round robin difficulties encountered with Galatians 6:16.

For those others that have not read the article; I will repost the webs address so new posters will know what is going on.

http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/eschatology/israel.shtml

 

TrailBlazer,

Agreed. Lets forget Gal 6:16 for the purposes of further discussion on this thread. Not the premise, the premise is the heart of this discussion, but lets drop Gal 6:16 as a "proof text" for either position. K?

In looking back, some of my words were pretty strong. Please focus on the content of the post, not the intensity of my emotional state when I was writing. Thanks.

And, I will read, analyze and comment on Warren's entire article. Just won't be done by tonight!

 

rjprince,

I don't think anyone can absorb 49 pages - especially these 49 pages in such a short period of time and still have a life to live.

I am still considering it. Perhaps maybe a "test period" for starters to see how that goes.

 

Blazer,

Check your link. I am not sure that is the article from which you quoted... He has a lot.

 

rjprince,

I checked it and it is the correct address. The section that I used as a reference started at the bottom of pg. 30 and onto page 31 when printed out on "my" printer.

 

rjprince,

I've decided not to run with this. I posted that reference with the web address as an excellent resource for anyone interested in a close examination of a very valid theological point of view.

I don't really wish to see it torn apart - just studied. Hope you all read it and learn from it.

 

Trailblazer,

Best of all to you. Stay in the Word. My motto has become - semper reformanda, always reforming.

 

Larry,

I wanted to respond to you about this but checked in with my favorite pre-Darby/Scofield commentator, Matthew Henry. I was amazed that his commentary had,almost word for word, put forth the same view of why Christ answered the disciples in the manner in which he did. But, since he is so much more learned than I, I will submit his entire section as I could not possibly have put it better.

As I have said before, but less eloquently, Christ gave us only ONE job to do as follwers of Christ - to preach the gospel and bring others to Him. At the very instant that we see Christ at His Second Coming that job will be over with and He WILL NOT BE REQUIRING OUR HELP WITH IT ONE BIT! Therefore, to have the fixation on it that is evident today is to neglect the job that we were to be doing while are here.

 

Henry was a devotional writer, not a technical commentator and for that reason, his work is of limited value. I have it, and refer to it on occasion if I am looking for devotional material or applicational material. I rarely if ever look at Henry for understanding of the meaning of a passage. I am not questioning his heart or intent. I am simply saying he is inadequate for answers like this.

But this assertion he never supports with Scripture. That is the problem with this whole position represented by Henry. It is widely asserted; it is rarely if ever actually supported. And leads directly to the question: If their expectation was wrong, why did Christ not correct them? Why didn't he do what Henry, Allis, and others have taken upon themselves to do? Should we suspect that Henry, Allis, and others are more concerned with right doctrine than Christ? I hardly think so, yet what other conclusion can we come to?

And where did they get this "thought" or "expectation"? The answer is clear: They got it from the words of the OT and from the teaching of Jesus. In 3 1/2 years, Jesus had not done anything to dispel this notion from them. After 3 1/2 years of discipleship in the school of Christ, the disciples still thought there would be an earthly kingdom, and Christ, in his last earthly chance, did nothing to correct that notion. That is very telling.

But again, a fatal flaw arises. The disciples did not ask about the church; they asked about Israel. Henry slyly changes words as if they don't mean anything. We should not tolerate that.

But the job of a teacher is to dispel false notions. Christ, the master teacher, did not. Why not? We can only conclude he did not becuase they were right in their expectatin. Christ acknowledged as much by his reply.

This is a statement that cannot be verified from the text. It fits neatly, but shows that Henry (as do others on both sides) assume certain things to support their view.

This is a self-condemning statement from Henry. He has take the literal and made it figurative. He has condemned the disciples for doing the very thing he recommends.

This message of a coming kingdom was the message of hte church in ACts and the NT, culminating int eh book of REvelation. It was never "rectified" until long after the revelatory age had ended.

Not true on several counts. First, his reply is an acknowledgement that their conception was a correct one. He did not say, "You are wrong" or "You have misunderstood." He simply siad that the times that you talk about are not for you to know. Secondly, In Acts 3, just days or weeks after the pouring out of the Spirit, when such teaching would hvae been fresh, Peter again preaches the notion of a coming kingdom. Should we assume that Peter so quickly forgot what the Spirit said? Or should we assume that Henry, et al, was wrong?

The promise of the OT was not about a gospel kingdom, and that is not what Christ talked about, nor what the disciples asked about.

Knowledge of what? Knowledge that their question was wrong? Or knowledge that the answer to their question was not in their purview? The latter is surely the answer.

AGain, several quick problems of note: 1. John 16 is not about the kingdom, but about the future revelation from the Spirit. 2. If Christ had told them all things concerning the kingdom, then we must assume that he told them the nature of it (e.g., spiritual not literal). But he didn't. Again, very telling that a Christ who taught them all these things didn't bother to teach them this.

I don't many are really "fixed on it" though some certainly are. I think the pop theology of this age in both camps are wrong. I think we need to be consumed with the gospel and discipleship. But that does not permit us to have bad theology or to change the text of Scripture.

The problems with Henry's answer are so many that they cannot be fully addressed. I have given just a brief taste of the problems. I could write pages, if I had the time and willingness to do it. Suffice it to say that he so badly glossed over the issue as to not give a real answer in any meaningful sense. And that is not because I discount it (as you have charged before); it is because I disagree. He has not dealt adequately with the text itself, nor with the texts on which the disciples' question was based, nor with the writings/speaking of the disciples themselves who do not teach this new amill/postmill view. We need a more serious handling of the word.