The Church Universal

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Rippon, May 28, 2013.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Rippon

    Rippon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    17,416
    Likes Received:
    328
    A recently cancelled thread called :Calvin's Amillennialism And Infant Baptism Sat/Nep made several comments directed toward me.

    He said,among other things;"One of your problems is that you are a universalis,which goes right along with Catholic doctrine. The universal church,to your dismay,has no function here on earth carrying out the Lord's work...It's obvious you have little regard for the local church.

    Sat/Nep: do you believe Acts 20;28? It says : "the church of God which He bought with His own blood." Does the shed blood of Christ upon the cross apply to the Church Universal or not? Of couse it applies to all regenerate people scattered around the globe --members of the Church Universal!
    ______________________________________________________

    Have you ever sung The Church's One Foundation Is Jesus Christ Her Lord? Did you believe the words you sang?

    These are some snips from it.

    She is from every nation,Yet one o'er all the earth

    The church will never perish!

    and the great church victorious shall be the church at rest.

    Yet she on earth hath union with God the three in one.
    ______________________________________________

    Sat/Nep: the Bride of Christ is the church universal. All the local bodies of bvelievers scattered throughout the earth constitutes the Church Universal.

    To be a Universalist one would have to believe that every sinle person will be going to Heaven. I obviously do not hold to that. But of course,you have deliberately used terminology to confuse matters.

    As for your remark to me about the local church. You are being nonsensical.

    Others may chime in here on this theme.
     
    #1 Rippon, May 28, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: May 28, 2013
  2. Luke2427

    Luke2427
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2010
    Messages:
    7,598
    Likes Received:
    8
    Right. "The church" not "the churches he purchased with his own blood."

    Singular.

    Jesus said "I will build my church..." not "I will build my churches..."

    This "there is no universal church" business has no exegetical support.
     
  3. Rippon

    Rippon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    17,416
    Likes Received:
    328

    Glad to hear that I am not in the minority here.But even if I was, I stand for the Church Universal. All believers are part of His Body,the Church,the Bride of Christ.
     
  4. Greektim

    Greektim
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member
    Supporter

    Joined:
    May 22, 2010
    Messages:
    3,143
    Likes Received:
    118
    Best proof for the "universal" church is Galatians 1 and the switching from singular church to plural churches drawing a clear distinction.

    Gal 1:1 Paul, an apostle—not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead—
    Gal 1:2 and all the brothers who are with me, To the churches of Galatia:

    Gal 1:13 For you have heard of my former life in Judaism, how I persecuted the church of God violently and tried to destroy it.

    Gal 1:22 And I was still unknown in person to the churches of Judea that are in Christ.
     
  5. saturneptune

    saturneptune
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2006
    Messages:
    13,977
    Likes Received:
    0
    Rippon, like every other challanged that is given to you, you ignore it. I asked in another thread, what is the purpose of the universal church on this earth? It is a meaningless entity. They never told one person about the Gospel. They never sent out one missionary, they never held a Lord's Supper, they never baptised anyone, they never took up an offering, they never visited the sick, or helped the poor. They never took up an offering, held a worship service, or sang a hymn.

    Universal church is closely aligned with the RCC. They are the universal church. I will ask you for a second time, why are you a Baptist? If you do not hold to the Baptist distinctive of the local church, why are you here?

    The reason you are here is to sow discord. You have no interest in discussing God's sovereignty, grace, or any other doctrine. You want to argue.
     
  6. saturneptune

    saturneptune
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2006
    Messages:
    13,977
    Likes Received:
    0
    That is baloney. the churches Paul addresses are local, autonomous churches. If you feel the need to have elders, a hierarchy, and a Pope, join the Catholic Church.
     
  7. jbh28

    jbh28
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2008
    Messages:
    3,761
    Likes Received:
    0
    Of course Paul addressed local churches. no one has said differently, but he did mention "church" singular. There is a universal church of all NT believers. We here today have local churches spread throughout the world.

    all churches have elders or at least one elder(pastor and elder are the same office). not sure why you reference the Roman Catholic church. Maybe just to be mean.
     
  8. jbh28

    jbh28
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2008
    Messages:
    3,761
    Likes Received:
    0
    really, no nt believer has ever done this?

    I don't know of anyone that doesn't believe in the local church on here.
     
  9. Alive in Christ

    Alive in Christ
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2008
    Messages:
    3,822
    Likes Received:
    0
    It should be evident to all christians that there are "local" churches...and ALSO the the "Universal Church. (or, the Church universal.)

    But so many dear ones advocate against it with a passion.

    That is so sad. So very sad. I think that some think we are advocating Catholicisim.

    The Catholic Church has NOTHING to do with the Gods church Just like Mormonism and the the Jehouavs Witness dont.
     
    #9 Alive in Christ, May 28, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: May 28, 2013
  10. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2005
    Messages:
    9,031
    Likes Received:
    0
    Brother Rippon cited Acts 20:28 in the OP. Let's look at it.
    To whom did Paul say this? 20:17 tells us:
    So, Paul is talking to the elders of FBC Ephesus--a local church. It is this church--the flock--over which the Holy Spirit had made them overseers.

    It is this flock which Paul told them to feed. The church of God over which the Holy Spirit had made them overseers. FBC Ephesus. A local church. Which Jesus purchased with His own blood.

    No Universal Church is in view here.

    This is the same church Jesus said he loved in Ephesians 5:25. He wrote that husbands should love their wives with the same intensity that he loved FBC Ephesus--so much that they would die for them.

    These were real husbands and wives. Not some "universal" wife.

    In the same way, Jesus died for East Baptist Church, Paducah, Kentucky, where saturneptune and I are privileged to serve.

    In the same way He purchased every New Testament church. Every local congregation. Not some nebulous "universal" church. Real, live, breathing, living congregations that assemble, worship and witness.

    By the way, there is an entity composed of all the saved. It's called the kingdom.
     
  11. Greektim

    Greektim
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member
    Supporter

    Joined:
    May 22, 2010
    Messages:
    3,143
    Likes Received:
    118
    Good retort (seein' as how you didn't really deal w/ the scripture I posed). But what do you do w/ Gal. 1:13 that draws a distinction between local churches and the general/universal church that Paul persecuted (not on local body but the body of Christ in general).
     
  12. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2005
    Messages:
    9,031
    Likes Received:
    0
    Some may equate the church and the kingdom as the same thing. Here's one man's opinion on this. Thomas Paul Simmons wrote in A Systematic Study of Bible Doctrine (1934)

     
  13. HeirofSalvation

    HeirofSalvation
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2012
    Messages:
    1,962
    Likes Received:
    1
    Hi GT:
    I am one who does not believe that the Scriptures teach anything like a "Universal Church" as well:

    But the way they would understand your passage in Galatians is to say that the "Church" (singular) refers to the sum total of all of the individual "churches" (plural).

    It's what I like to call (and I think some others have) the "Church General"...but denying the "Universal" Church is to say that the Scriptures do not ever call simply any and everyone who is saved throughout all N.T. history is a part of something called the "Church".

    The Church is understood as being only and specifically, an institution with a commissioned purpose.

    Luke's rather dismissal statement was IMO not accurate or fair, that it "has no exegetical support". If it's a mistaken doctrine, there are some awfully good Biblical arguments made.

    For the last 150 or so years I would argue the average Baptist believed in no such thing as the U-church. You will notice the 1925 BFM made no mention of anything like the "Universal Church" but only mentioned the "Gospel Church" and defined it as the local bodies of believers.

    I believe that modern Baptists have picked up the idea of the Universal Church not strictly from the Scripture but through the ecumenical influence of Protestant denominations. (Be it correct or not).

    Any-way. I hope my explanation of how someone might read Galatians there was helpful.
     
  14. DrJamesAch

    DrJamesAch
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2012
    Messages:
    1,427
    Likes Received:
    0
    There is a huge difference in the ekklesia as being a corporate body in Christ, and what the RCC and many Protestants mean by catholic church. The apostles did not appoint bishops and deacons to a catholic church, they were appointed to local churches, and they certainly never ordained a pope to be the federal head over the church.
     
  15. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2005
    Messages:
    9,031
    Likes Received:
    0
    Let's look at Galatians 1:13
    Here's another verse. Ephesians 5:23
    Here we have examples of a specific term being used generically.

    If I say "the jury is charged with determining guilt or innocence," I'm using "jury" in a generic sense. It has little meaning until and unless it takes concrete expression in a real, live, breathing, functioning, assembling jury.

    The principle stated as "the husband is head of the wife" is meaningless until and unless you refer to a real husband and a real wife.

    Christ's headship of the church has little meaning unless He's the head of a real, live, breathing, assembling, worshipping, witnessing entity.

    Since the meaning of the Greek ecclesia has come to mean "assembly," we can conclude that real ecclesias actually assemble. The generic ecclesia takes concrete expression in a local church.

    No universal church is in view here.
     
  16. Alive in Christ

    Alive in Christ
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2008
    Messages:
    3,822
    Likes Received:
    0
    Tom Butler posted...


    That was excellant! Thanks

    Praise God for the local church, and praise God for the Universal chruch!
     
    #16 Alive in Christ, May 28, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: May 28, 2013
  17. AresMan

    AresMan
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2005
    Messages:
    1,636
    Likes Received:
    0
    1 Cor 10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:

    There seem to be three categories of people here:
    1. (unsaved) Jews
    2. (unsaved) Gentiles
    3. the church of God (saved Jews and Gentiles).

    Would saved Jews and Gentiles from other local assemblies than the Corinthians fall in categories 1 or 2 respectively, or would they fall in 3?
     
  18. AresMan

    AresMan
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2005
    Messages:
    1,636
    Likes Received:
    0
    1Co 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
    1Co 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

    Are the body of Christ and the church the same thing? Sounds like it.
    If "the church" is only a reference to the local instance and not of the whole, does ever local church have apostles, prophets, teachers, and such?

    We also see in the greeting of this epistle the following:

    1Co 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

    I would say that Paul, being a missionary was not a "member" of the local church of Corinth. Else he would have to be a "member" of all the churches he planted and/or to which he wrote epistles. Whatever the case, he said to the people of the church at Corinth:

    1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

    If the church and the body are not one and the same, we have a problem for the local-church-onlyists, because Paul also said:

    Eph 1:22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
    Eph 1:23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.


    Are there more than one fulnesses of Christ that fill "all in all"?
    If Christ is given "head over all things" to "the church," how can this be divided?

    Eph 3:21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

    I don't know of any local assembly that has endured throughout all ages.

    Eph 5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
    Eph 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.


    If marriage was a picture of the mystery hid in God of Christ and the church, how can "they two" be a picture of Christ and His many "the bride"'s?
     
  19. AresMan

    AresMan
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2005
    Messages:
    1,636
    Likes Received:
    0
    Col 1:24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:
    Col 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
    Col 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:


    Paul was made a minister to "his body... which is the church."
    How can this be construed to be strictly local (i.e. the church of Ephesus)?

    Paul also told them to have the Laodicean church read this same epistle:

    Col_4:16 And when this epistle is read among you, cause that it be read also in the church of the Laodiceans; and that ye likewise read the epistle from Laodicea.

    Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
    Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
    Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.


    If you are in the New Covenant in the blood of Christ, you have come to "the general assembly and church...written in heaven."
     
  20. preachinjesus

    preachinjesus
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member
    Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2004
    Messages:
    7,406
    Likes Received:
    99
    We've had this discussion before (I'm not going to look up the thread(s)) and some folks simply won't concede there is both a universal/invisible Church and local/visible churches spoken on in the NT.

    By acknowledging the former we don't automatically become "Roman Catholic" or some other moniker of heresy. Rather, since the earliest days of Christianity it has always been the orthodox position that there is both a universal and local church. All believers are part of the corporate body of Christ, the universal Church which is invisible until the eschatological consummation of the age. Until then we are called to remain faithful in our involvement and support of a local community of believers to which we are called to share life and worship.

    That's it for me. Y'all have fun. ;)
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

Loading...