The church was the intended audience...

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by convicted1, Apr 2, 2015.

  1. convicted1

    convicted1
    Expand Collapse
    Retired Staff

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2007
    Messages:
    9,011
    Likes Received:
    3
    Those who oppose the Doctrines of Grace, do so because they are akin to Don Quixote, and find an image that isn't what they deem it to be. I should know, I was in their ranks for 7+ years. They have these Doctrines in their minds as an ogre, an overbearing ogre, who is very cruel. Yet, that is far from the truth. Jesus made many statements of who He came to redeem from the world of the lost...



    As you can plainly read here, there is ONE Shepherd and ONE flock. The sheep have always been sheep. Even before being saved, we were His sheep; sheep having gone astray(Isa. 53:6). This is why Jesus had to come and die as a man here on earth, to redeem us with His blood. For without the shedding of blood there is no remission(Heb. 9:22). By His death, He brought atonement, and this atonement brought with it reconciliation. Now, if Christ did indeed die for every man, woman, and child, then all have been reconciled to God through Christ. This is where verses such as John 3:16, 2 Pet. 3:9, 1 John 2:2, Rev. 22:17, and 2 Cor. 5:19 get shredded to doll rags by the non-cals. Christ's death brought reconciliation to all the elect, and not merely potential reconciliation. If Christ died for all, and not all of us who ever lived were saved, then Christ has been provened to be the biggest failure of all time. But we know that His death brought reconciliation to the elect, the church, the sheep, the bride of Christ, &c.

    Then in His resurrection, He was resurrected for an certain, an intended audience...the church, the sheep, the elect, the bride of Christ, &c. Who was He risen for? The elect or all mankind without exception? Let's let the bible prove this one for itself....



    Now, if Christ was risen for everybody without exception, you have a bunch of reconciled and justified sinners in hell as we speak. Justification is via faith, and this faith is from God, as Rom. 12:3, Gal. 3:8, & Heb. 12:2 plainly states as biblical fact.

    So if Christ died and was risen for all mankind, then Christ failed miserably, seeing that He died for His sheep and these sheep He said He would not lose one of then. Then He arose for our justification, so then if He justified all mankind and all mankind was not saved, how poor is this justification?


    In closing....

    --Christ died for the church...Eph. 5:25
    --He arose for OUR(I.E. church) justification...Rom. 4:25
    --He gives faith to the church...Gal. 3:8, Heb. 12:2, Rom. 5:8
    --He will return to gather in His sheep at His 2nd coming...Matt. 25, 1 Thess. 4, John 5:28,29, Rev. 20, 1 Cor. 15


    Everything this Man did, He did it for His sheep, the ones the Father gave to Him from before the foundation of the world...John 10, John 17, Eph. 1, Rom. 8...
     
    #1 convicted1, Apr 2, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 2, 2015
  2. convicted1

    convicted1
    Expand Collapse
    Retired Staff

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2007
    Messages:
    9,011
    Likes Received:
    3
    In quite a few verses the non-cals use to prove unlimited atonement, they conveinently leave of the us, we, our in those verses.


    -- The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.(2 Pet. 3:9 ESV)The you were the ones who had obtained that same faith as other believers had.
    --For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.(John 3:16 ESV) Christ died for those who would believe and not those who would never believe.
    -- The Spirit and the Bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price.(Rev. 22:17 ESV) The call made here was to those who were thirsty and not to any and all without exception.

    As you can tell, there is a focal point to the bible, and the intended audience Christ died,was buried, resurrected, ascended to the Father, and will come back for...the church, the sheep, the elect, the bride of Christ, &c...
     
  3. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    38,287
    Likes Received:
    780
    And there you have it. The real attitude behind your posts. If you want to debate those who oppose your view you should not begin with an attack on them.
     
  4. convicted1

    convicted1
    Expand Collapse
    Retired Staff

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2007
    Messages:
    9,011
    Likes Received:
    3
    ....or put your 'big boy pants' on and debate....
     
  5. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    38,287
    Likes Received:
    780
    "putting your bog boy pants on" would actually consist of not attacking those you want to debate with. What you did was childish.
     
    #5 Revmitchell, Apr 2, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 2, 2015
  6. convicted1

    convicted1
    Expand Collapse
    Retired Staff

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2007
    Messages:
    9,011
    Likes Received:
    3
    This makes two posts you've made on this thread that hasn't addressed the OP. Are you going to debate what I've posted? Show me via scriptures where you believe I am wrong.


    Oh and btw, you are the one who was banned for how long, two years? Don't talk to me about being childish.....
     
  7. Rippon

    Rippon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    17,403
    Likes Received:
    328
    You speak like a child. Either that or you have a speech impediment. ;-)
     
  8. Rippon

    Rippon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    17,403
    Likes Received:
    328
    Amen to all of the above.
     
  9. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    38,287
    Likes Received:
    780
    First I see you do not deny the charges you only further attack one who points it out. Second I was banned for calling someone a baby killer except I never called anyone a baby killer. It never happened and no one not any admin or mod can produce a post where I posted that.

    You used to be very reasonable and here lately the tone of your posts has changed dramatically. You have become very hostile and defensive. I am not sure what has changed for you but I will be praying.
     
  10. convicted1

    convicted1
    Expand Collapse
    Retired Staff

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2007
    Messages:
    9,011
    Likes Received:
    3
    For years on here I was very reasonable, and still got dumped on. I have decided to dish it back out and I've changed? It's just dishing out what I've taken on here for years.


    Now, are you going to debate the Op or not? That makes 3 posts and not once have you address it, other than the Don Quixote quote.
     
  11. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    38,287
    Likes Received:
    780
    That is a shame. Maybe you need a break from the board.



    I'll tell you what, you recant that first part of your statement and I will move on and address the rest.
     
  12. convicted1

    convicted1
    Expand Collapse
    Retired Staff

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2007
    Messages:
    9,011
    Likes Received:
    3
    What? No thumbs up, thumbs, or anything? :D :smilewinkgrin:
     
  13. convicted1

    convicted1
    Expand Collapse
    Retired Staff

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2007
    Messages:
    9,011
    Likes Received:
    3
    Uh huh....can't answer it it appears....
     
  14. PreachTony

    PreachTony
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2014
    Messages:
    1,910
    Likes Received:
    0
    In the KJV, that verse reads "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."
    Try as you might, that verse speaks to me of a universal desire of God that mankind would turn to Him. He is not willing that anyone should die, but His desire is that all come to repentance. If God's grace is as irresistible as the Calvinist claims it to be, why does God simply not move all mankind to repent and live in harmony with Him? Could it be that, because of the separation caused by the Fall, and by the ingrained will that a sovereign God granted His creation, that mankind has to come to God, or reject God, under their own volition after hearing the preached Word and feeling the drawing power of the Holy Ghost of God?

    Sorry, Bro. Willis, but you're using the same Calvinist trap that others have tried. You don't want the word "whosoever" to mean "whosoever," you want it to mean "the Elect." You don't want "the world" to mean "the world," you want it to mean "the Elect." I've been accused before (not here) of over-spiritualizing scripture, but to read John 3:16 literally would give anyone the impression that God sent Jesus for the whole world; not just a small part of it.

    The KJV reads "And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." This feels like a stretch to apply this verse only to the Elect. Again, you are making "him that heareth" and "whosoever" apply only to the Elect. If that makes you feel better, then go for it. I don't see it that way.

    Sure, it's only for a select few. The rest of you can just give up. You never had a chance. God never loved you and never intended to even approach you with intent to save. You were damned to Hell before you were even created in your mother's womb. You do realize that's the flip side to the Calvinist argument for Election, right? A vast multitude of people bound for Hell and the eventual Lake of Fire through no action of their own, but simply because God never loved them and intended to damn them before the foundation of the world.
     
  15. Rippon

    Rippon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    17,403
    Likes Received:
    328
    Some snips from John Owen's The Death of Death in the Death of Christ.

    "So the sense is, :God so loved his elect throughouut the world, that he gave his Son with this intention, that by him believers might be saved." (p.214)

    "These words, then, whosoever believeth, containing a designation of the means whereby the Lord will bring us to a participation of life through his Son, whom he gave for us; and the following words, of having life everlasting, making out the whole counsel of God in this matter, subordinate to his own glory; it followeth, --
    That God gave not his Son,--1. For them who never do believe; 2. Much less for them who never hear of him, and so evidently want means of faith; 3. For them on whom he hath determined not to bestow effectual grace, that they might believe." (p.217)

    John Owen goes into some depth, which my snippets do not do him justice, but these bites might be food for thought.
     
  16. Rippon

    Rippon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    17,403
    Likes Received:
    328
    Matthew 11:28 :
    "Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest." (NIV)

    What follows is a snip from A.W. Pink's article :Studies on Saving Faith

    "...contains a gracious invitation, made by the compassionate Savior to a particular class of sinners. The 'all' is qualified, clearly and definitely, by the words which immediately follow it. The character of those to whom this loving word belongs is clearly defined : it is to those who 'labor' and are 'heavy laden.' Most clearly then, it applies not to the vast majority of light-headed, gay-hearted, pleasure-seeking fellows, who have no regard for God's glory and no concern about their eternal welfare...But to those who have 'labored' hard to keep the law and please God, who are 'heavy laden' with a felt sense of their utter inability to meet His requirements, and who long to be delivered from the power and pollution of sin, Christ says, 'Come unto me, and I will give you rest.' "
     
  17. Rebel

    Rebel
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2014
    Messages:
    1,011
    Likes Received:
    3
    Still waiting for a public apology from 'convicted1' on the charges he made about me and Steaver. Still waiting to see what he's made of.
     
  18. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    13,377
    Likes Received:
    728
    PT

    every single person Peter spoke of in 2 pet 3.......to usward....is going to be saved......not one will be lost.....they are chosen by God. ...He will seek and save all He has purposed to save.......not one more....not one less
    to say otherwise is to misunderstand the whole chapter......
     
  19. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    13,377
    Likes Received:
    728
    Con 1 has given a proper observation and a challenge that I believe you have misread.

    He claims the objectors have imaginary enemies....caricatures of the truth......
    Now he offers the challenge.....step up......to you and any other person.....to show line by line where you believe what he posted..... is right or wrong and why. ..
    .so now......you two......play nice
     
  20. convicted1

    convicted1
    Expand Collapse
    Retired Staff

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2007
    Messages:
    9,011
    Likes Received:
    3

Share This Page

Loading...