The Coming Assault on Christianity

Discussion in 'Fundamental Baptist Forum' started by XYiftah, Nov 7, 2012.

  1. XYiftah

    XYiftah
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    Whilst it has been going on for some time....I think it is going to get much worse and very soon..... the re-election of a socialistic/communist President will facilitate the secularists ability to increase their Anti-Christian agenda.

    My question is what should Baptists do? Should we get more involved in Politics? Or is there something else we can do to prepare for the persecution that is rapidly descending upon us?

    I think too many are in denial to the very real threats we face...as Christians and as freedom loving Americans. We have had tough economic times before...but what we face now is much more than just a bad economy...it is a concentrated attack on Christianity in general and fundamentalists in particular......

    It seems to me we are going to revisit the early days of Christianity...when by necessity it was an underground movement...aka their meeting places etc. were secret and Christians were forced to live in a 'stealth' mode meaning to keep a low profile and avoid the attention of the authorities as much as possible.
     
  2. mont974x4

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    It is a fair question and one that I have been praying over off and on since Obama won the first time. The frequency of these prayers has picked up in the last year and a half.

    Rom 13:1 Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.
    Rom 13:2 Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves.
    Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same;
    Rom 13:4 for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil.
    Rom 13:5 Therefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience' sake.
    Rom 13:6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for rulers are servants of God, devoting themselves to this very thing.
    Rom 13:7 Render to all what is due them: tax to whom tax is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor.
    Rom 13:8 Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.

    1Pe 2:13 Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority,
    1Pe 2:14 or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those who do right.
    1Pe 2:15 For such is the will of God that by doing right you may silence the ignorance of foolish men.
    1Pe 2:16 Act as free men, and do not use your freedom as a covering for evil, but use it as bondslaves of God.
    1Pe 2:17 Honor all people, love the brotherhood, fear God, honor the king.
    1Pe 2:18 Servants, be submissive to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and gentle, but also to those who are unreasonable.
    1Pe 2:19 For this finds favor, if for the sake of conscience toward God a person bears up under sorrows when suffering unjustly.
    1Pe 2:20 For what credit is there if, when you sin and are harshly treated, you endure it with patience? But if when you do what is right and suffer for it you patiently endure it, this finds favor with God.
    1Pe 2:21 For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps,


    Remember the historical context of these passages. I a convinced what awaits us will be comparable to the days of Nero, and our instruction is the same.


    Now, what has really been at the heart of my prayers concerning this is my responsibility as a pastor not just in the near term as things begin to come to pass but also when they are in full swing. My ultimate desire is to glorify God in each part I play (husband, father, pastor, citizen).
     
  3. abcgrad94

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    There are a few things we can do to prepare for what lies ahead. We can start by expecting changes within the church. If your church hasn't already done so, it needs to update its policies about weddings, membership, teachers, etc. I think the [email protected] will soon start demanding that all pastors and all churches marry them. Churches need to be ready for this and develop policies to protect the church.

    I think we can expect more changes in the workplace that will make it harder for Christians to maintain their jobs. Expect to suffer financially as well.

    We can prepare our children by making sure they know what we believe, and why. I'm seeing more and more Christian kids leave home to attend secular universities and they either fall away or if they do come to church, they want to introduce ungodly teachings in the church.
     
  4. mont974x4

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    One of the things that impressed me about Bonhoeffer was his discipleship programs and his setting the example. When he was in prison he would sometimes have books and hymnals but not always. Having at least part of the Word memorized gave him strength and knowing songs by heart was also a comfort to him. More than that though, he was able to comfort others, even his guards, with the truth and with regularly singing hymns.
     
  5. Mexdeaf

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    Excellent post.
     
  6. abcgrad94

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    Thanks. My oldest dd (almost 16) and I just had a talk about this last night. I think the time is coming where our faith WILL be tested and tried, at least in ways that may hurt us financially, socially, or even physically.

    What we have to determine NOW is if we are willing to stand firm for Christ and walk the hard road when things get tough. We need to keep ourselves spiritually refreshed, close to the Lord, and alert to the wiles of the devil.

    I don't want to suffer. I don't want to see my family suffer, but if it happens, it shouldn't take us unaware. Like the old hymn says "Should I be carried to the skies on flowery beds of ease while others fought to win the prize and sailed through bloody seas?"
     
  7. Bronconagurski

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    When persecution hit the early church, the gospel was spread to all points because of it, not despite it. I pray the same thing happens in America. That people will stop playing church and get serious about the things of God.
     
  8. webdog

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    I'm already preparing my children. My son (7) is already aware there may come a day where we may even lose our lives for our faith. We are on the path to second or third world status.
     
  9. SolaSaint

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    After the election I watched MSNBC to see how thry reacted and yes they seemed to claim this election as a mandate on a variety of social immorals. The NOW crowd and the gays seem to feel more emboldend than ever.

    We must stand up for the truth in the dark days coming, not that they aren't already here.
     
  10. XYiftah

    XYiftah
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    Can A Christian Righteously Rebel against Government? (Romans 13)



    Dr. David M. Berman www.wakeupandsmellthetruth.com

    Let me start by saying that you must read this entire article to understand my position on this question. The following passage has been used by many to teach that Christians must submit to all government. In fact during the Katrina disaster many Pastors worked with FEMA in what they call "Clergy Response Teams." If Marshall law is declared, this team is to be used by government to keep the people from rebellion (Source K.S.L.A news). It is interesting how the government decries Christian involvement in public policy while at the same time they want to use pastors to facilitate tyranny. I would take time to write about these pastors who would cooperate with government tyranny but that is for another article.

    The justification for the mindset that teaches submission to government is found in the following passage:

    Romans 13:1-4 "Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil."

    This passage by itself seems to support the afore mentioned mind set, however we will see that it does not as we apply proper hermeneutic skills in understanding Scripture. Let us first understand that this passage makes it clear that Christians are to follow the laws of government in general. We are not to fight against lawful moral laws that do not violate as our founding documents say "natural laws or the laws of natures God." This is what our founders understood very well and so they gave us understanding of "inalienable rights." These rights are "self evident." Due to the brilliance of our founders they enshrined this truth in our founding documents so that we would have a nation of laws and not men. Many well meaning Christians believe that we are to submit to tyrannical leaders based on this passage. They are simply wrong. Legitimate government is there to reward good and to punish evil. It is not there to punish good and to reward evil.

    The question is; "Can a Christian righteously rebel?" The answer is no! It is never acceptable for a Christian to rebel. First Samuel chapter fifteen says "rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft."Having said that, in order to really answer this question we must first define rebellion. What is Rebellion? Is it simply disobedience of an authority? The answer is this; Rebellion is the disobedience of a lawful order and a lawful authority. That is what rebellion is. Two examples would be:

    1) Refusing to stop when a police car is behind you with lights on.

    2) Refusing to answer a question when testifying in court (not including 5th amendment).

    What is rebellion not? Rebellion is not disobedience of an unlawful authority or an unlawful order. No government has the right to give unlawful or ungodly orders. Those who believe that Romans 13 somehow gives a right to government to give ungodly and unlawful orders to its citizens are terribly mistaken. Pastors that help the government disarm the citizenry, are acting against the Constitution and the natural law of self defense. Government is not given a right to tyrannical despotic rule. Let's look at the following passage to gain more understanding of this:

    Acts 5:27 "And when they had brought them, they set them before the council: and the high priest asked them"

    Here we see that Peter and other Apostles were brought before the council to answer charges that they have disobeyed the authority's demand that they stop preaching salvation through Jesus Christ.

    Acts 5:28 "Saying, Did not we straitly command you that ye should not teach in this name? and, behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this man's blood upon us"

    The authority makes it clear that they were commanded not to teach in Jesus' name. Not only were they accused of disobedience of a direct order but also of sedition in filling Jerusalem with the doctrine of Christ. The following response of Peter should give all Christians the understanding of Romans 13:1-4.

    Acts 5:29 "Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men"

    "We ought to obey God rather than men." This is the supreme principle concerning the question at hand. We must realize that Peter was not in rebellion against them. It is impossible to be in rebellion against an unlawful or ungodly order. If the order is ungodly we are obligated to disobey it. We are only in rebellion if the order is lawful and comes from proper authority. God does not contradict himself. He did not command us to obey him and at the same time command us to obey things that men tell us to do which oppose his moral law. For example we are given the right and responsibility to raise our own children in the Lord. We have every right to disobey any action of government that seeks to indoctrinate our children with ungodly teachings!

    Our founding fathers fought against the tyranny of the King of England because they realized that the King was in violation of our inalienable rights.

    The Declaration of Independence says when speaking of the violation of the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness:

    "Any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute New Government." This means that if a government starts doing things that destroy people's rights, rather than protecting their rights, it is their right to change or destroy that form of government, and to institute a new one that will protect their rights"
     
  11. Van

    Van
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    1) Acting as an individual, are we to conclude that we can be outlaws because the law is in part ungodly?

    2) Acting as an assembly of believers, are we to conclude we can advocate for godly law and against ungodly law, i.e. engage in a war of ideas?

    Who knows their bible?
     
  12. XYiftah

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    Ater the end of World War II....the famous Nuremburg trials were held to try Nazis for war crimes....all of them as far as I know used the defense of "I was just following orders".

    Do your remember what was said about that?

    But to answer your question specifically: if a law...any law...by any government....goes against our beliefs as Christians it is not a legal law for Christians...and it does not make us 'outlaws' to refuse to follow a illegal law. Which is not to say we will not be prosecuted by mis-guided civil authorities.

    In essence the Lord is Allmighty God...we should fear him more than any secular authority and all of our behavior should be geared to try and obey his word as diligently as we can...when man's law conflicts with our Christian Beliefs...then a Christian is obligated to refuse to honor any such law.

    Our forefathers established this Nation and then rebelled against a tyrannical power.....England. Does anyone really believe they were wrong to do so?

    I do not believe as Christians we are forbidden to take part in the political process....nor the debates required to formulate good law.
     
  13. Van

    Van
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    Folks, the ends do not justify the means.

    Did the folks that signed the Declaration of Independence act as individuals, or collectively as a governing body? Were they not acting as representatives of the people of the United States of America?

    The Bible teaches how we should act as individuals, as members of our church, and under the color of governing authority. As an individual we shall not murder, but acting under the color of governing authority we can wield deadly force.
     
  14. mont974x4

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    We have biblical examples of righteous civil disobedience.

    The mid-wives disobeyed Pharaoh, and lied, to save Hebrew babies.
    Daniel,twice, one time he acted as a leader of a group
    Shadrach Meshach and Abed-nego
    Esther
    The prophets, and John the Baptist, broke laws and socially accepted norms to stand before kings proclaiming the messages of God.
    Peter and the Apostles in Acts 5...this one is especially important to the context of this thread. Individually and as a group these men preached the Gospel at great risk, even breaking the law.


    Our obedience to authorities on earth has limits and it is not supposed to be blind.
     
  15. Van

    Van
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    Lists of names without specific references does not foster careful study of specifics. Pick your best example and explain from the text the principle of lawlessness.

    a) Midwives

    b) Rahab and the spies

    c) Daniel

    d)Esther

    e) one specific prophet

    f) John the Baptist

    g) Peter in Acts 5
     
  16. mont974x4

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    It does foster careful study. It does assume the posters here have a basic knowledge of Scripture and a desire to search the Word to see if the examples ring true.

    It does not, however, overcome an individuals laziness or intellectual dishonesty.
     
  17. XYiftah

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    They were subjects of the King of England who were in rebellion to tyrannical authority.

    I have never noticed Scripture 'specifically' breaking down how it instructs us into categories of 'collectiv'e and 'individual' behavior...now granted one might make that inference but I do not recall anywhere in the scriptures that says directly...you shall do this as an individual or you shall not do that as an individual......or you can do this collectively....or you cannot do this collectively....what scriptures do you base your understanding of individual behavior vs. collective behavior on?

    How would you explain the following scripture?
    Luke 22:36-38

    King James Version (KJV)


    36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

    37 For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.

    38 And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.
     
  18. Van

    Van
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    Folks, did you see a specific reference and explanation of the assertion? Or did you see an attempt to disparage those with the unmitigated gall to ask for more. :)
     
  19. Van

    Van
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    Hi XYiftah, take a look at Hebrews 11. The last 5 or so heroes wielded the sword, so depending on whether one is acting individually or part of a governing authority, God provides different examples of righteous behavior.

    Pick one of the topics from post #15, and lets kick around the specifics as we see them in scripture.

    Now turning to Luke 22, in order to fulfill prophecy, Jesus said bring swords so He would be classified as criminal. However, to be clear, Jesus is the King of Kings, and so acting under His direction is to act under governing authority. Where some go astray is when a mental case says God told me to do some unlawful act, i.e. bomb an abortion clinic or shoot an abortionist. Jim Jones taught it was ok to murder your own children. So the protection God supplied in scripture is to discern God's will through collective decision making, like calling a Pastor. Since we are all indwelt, we can discuss the decision together to gain the wisdom of those with insight, then pray and meditate and study God's word separately, then come together and make collective decisions. That is the biblical model.
     
    #19 Van, Nov 11, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 11, 2012
  20. abcgrad94

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    I do not understand the direction in which this conversation is going. The OP asked what we could do to prepare for the coming persecution of Christians, and suddenly some start talking revolt and swords. Seriously? I didn't get that at all from the OP.
     

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