The Context of the Parenthesis Church

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by revmwc, May 9, 2015.

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  1. revmwc

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    Now the context:
    Many dispensalist teach the church lies in a valley, and that the prophets did not see it.
    They saw from mountain peak to mountain peak.

    That valley is what the Parenthesis illustration is.

    The Parenthesis is used to illustrate what Larkin and others taught as the Prophets seeing from messiah coming, being cutoff and then the Kingdom, the church was a valley between the mountains.

    The valley and peak to peak I was taught but never was a parenthesis church taught. Darby however is not credited with it. The Parenthesis was the teaching mainly of H.A. Ironside.

    That is what I can find.

    So the church is normally taught by many dispensationalist as a valley hidden from the prophets, and therefore the mystery spoken of by Paul.
     
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  2. revmwc

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    Now as for when the pre-trib teaching began we see this from:
    http://mayimhayim.org/Academic Stuff/Pre-Tribulation Rapture.htm

    "Many contemporary writers claim that the Pre-Tribulation Rapture theory first originated around A.D. 1820. They ascribe the theory's initial creation to either Emmanuel Lacunza (Ben Ezra, 1812), Edward Irving (1830), or Margaret Macdonald (1830), and finally to John Darby (1830). For example, Dave MacPherson in The Incredible Cover-Up (1975 stated); "Margaret Macdonald was the first person to teach a coming of Christ that would precede the days of Antichrist . . . . Before 1830, Christians had always believed in a single future coming, that the catching of I Thess. 4 will take place after the Great Tribulation of Matthew 24 at the glorious coming of the Son of Man when He shall send His angels to gather together all of His Elect." Reverend John Bray, in The Origin of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture Teaching (1982) declared; "People who are teaching the Pre-Tribulation Rapture teaching today are teaching something that never was taught until 1812 . . . . Not one of those early church fathers taught a Pre-Tribulation Rapture . . . . I make the offer of five hundred dollars to anybody who will find a statement, a sermon, article in a commentary, or anything, prior to 1812 that taught a two-phase coming of Christ separated by a stated period of time, such as the Pre-Tribulation rapturists teach." These writers, among others who despise the teaching of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture, dogmatically assert that it was taught for the first time in 1830 by John Darby and the Plymouth Brethren or one of the other individuals mentioned above.

    A number of these authors will have to drastically revise the next edition of their books based on two remarkable textual discoveries that conclusively prove that a number of Christian teachers, centuries before John Darby rediscovered this biblical teaching, clearly taught that the Rapture would occur before the Tribulation period. During the summer of 1994, after more than a decade of searching, I discovered several fascinating manuscripts that contain clear evidence of the teaching of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture in the early church."
     
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  3. revmwc

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    First we see the teaching did not start with Darby even with many contemporary writers.

    Next:
    Ephraem's Teaching on the Pre-Tribulation Rapture

    "For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the Tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins" (On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World, by Ephraem the Syrian, A.D. 373).

    The early Christian writer and poet, Ephraem the Syrian, (who lived from A.D. 306 to 373) was a major theologian of the early Byzantine Eastern Church. He was born near Nisbis, in the Roman province of Syria, near present day Edessa, Turkey. Ephraem displayed a profound love of the Scriptures in his writings as illustrated by several of his written comments quoted in the Works of Nathaniel Lardner, Vol. 4, 1788. "I esteem no man more happy than him, who diligently reads the Scriptures delivered to us by the Spirit of God, and thinks how he may order his conversation by the precepts of them." To this day, his hymns and homilies are used in the liturgy of the Greek Orthodox and Middle Eastern Nestorian Church. While the sixteen-volume Post-Nicene Library includes a number of homilies and psalms by Ephraem the Syrian, the editors noted that he also wrote a large number of commentaries that have never been translated into English.

    Ephraem's fascinating teaching on the Antichrist has never been published in English until now. This critically important prophecy manuscript from the fourth century of the Church era reveals a literal method of interpretation and a teaching of the Pre-Millennial return of Christ. More importantly, Ephraem's text revealed a very clear statement about the Pre-Tribulational return of Christ to take His elect saints home to heaven to escape the coming Tribulation. In addition, Ephraem declares his belief in a personal, Jewish Antichrist, who will rule the Roman Empire during the last days, a rebuilt temple, the two witnesses and a literal Great Tribulation lasting 1,260 days. It is also fascinating to note that he taught that the War of God and Magog would precede the Tribulation period. I discovered another text by Ephraem, called The Book of the Cave of Treasure, that revealed he taught that Daniel's Seventieth Week will be fulfilled in the final seven years at the end of this age that will conclude with Christ's return at the Battle of Armageddon to establish His kingdom.

    The following section includes key passages from Ephraem's important text, written about A.D. 373, and translated by Professor Cameron Rhoades, of Tyndale Theological Seminary, at the author of this articles request. (not revmwc).
     
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  4. revmwc

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    On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World

    "1. Most dearly beloved brothers, believe the Holy Spirit who speaks in us. Now we have spoken before, because the end of the world is very near, and the consummation remains. Has not the first faith withered away in men? ...

    "2. We ought to understand thoroughly therefore, my brothers what is imminent or overhanging. Already there have been hunger and plagues, violent movements of nations and signs, which have been predicted by the Lord, they have already been fulfilled, and there is not other which remains, except the advent of the wicked one in the completion of the Roman kingdom. Why therefore are we occupied with worldly business, and why is our mind held fixed on the lusts of the world or the anxieties of the ages? Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that He may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms the world? Believe you me, dearest brothers, because the coming of the Lord is nigh, believe you me, because it is the very last time . . . . Because all saints and Elect of the Lord are gathered together before the tribulation which is about to come and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins (Italics added). And so, brothers, most dear to me, it is the eleventh hour, and the end of this world comes to the harvest, and angels, armed and prepared, hold sickles in their hands, awaiting the empire of the Lord . . .

    "3. When therefore the end of the world comes, there arise diverse wars, commotions on all sides, horrible earthquakes, perturbations of nations, tempests throughout the lands, plagues, famine, drought throughout the thoroughfares, great danger throughout the sea and dry land, constant persecutions, slaughters and massacres everywhere . . .

    "6. When therefore the end of the world comes, that abominable, lying and murderous one is born from the tribe of Dan. He is conceived from the seed of a man and from a most vile virgin, mixed with an evil or worthless spirit . . .

    "7. But when the time of the abomination of his desolation begins to approach, having been made legal, he takes the empire . . . . Therefore, when he receives the kingdom, he orders the temple of God to be rebuilt for himself, which is in Jerusalem; who, after coming into it, he shall sit as God and order that he be adored by all nations . . . . then all people from everywhere shall flock together to him at the city of Jerusalem, and the holy city shall be trampled on by the nations for forty-two months just as the holy apostle says in the Apocalypse, which becomes three and a half years, 1260 days.

    "8. In these three years and a half the heaven shall suspend its dew; because there will be no rain upon the earth . . . . and there will be a Great Tribulation, as there has not been, since people began to be upon the earth . . . . and no one is able to sell or to buy of the grain of the fall harvest, unless he is one who has the serpentine sign on the forehead or the hand . . . .

    "10. And when the three and a half years have been completed, the time of the Antichrist, through which he will have seduced the world, after the resurrection of the two prophets, in the hour which the world does not know, and on the day which the enemy or son of perdition does not know, will come the sign of the Son of Man, and coming forward the Lord shall appear with great power and much majesty, with the sign of the word of salvation going before him, and also even with all the powers of the heavens with the whole chorus of the saints . . . . Then Christ shall come and the enemy shall be thrown into confusion, and the Lord shall destroy him by the Spirit of his mouth. And he shall be bound and shall be plunged into the abyss of everlasting fire alive with his father Satan; and all people, who do his wishes, shall perish with him forever; but the righteous ones shall inherit everlasting life with the Lord for ever and ever."

    So we see Ephraem the Syrian, A.D. 373 taught a pre-mil view of eschatology, saw the Tribulation following the church and prior to the Kingdom. While they didn't teach the dispensations per se they were pre-trib snatching away.

    Even more proof that the pre-trib teaching has been around since the church began.

    We now have the context of the Parenthesis church OR claims to loathe, it was used as an illustration to show the church as a valley between two peaks, thus the mystery referred to by Paul.

    Many who oppose the pre-trib dispenastional view do so in order to say that O.T. prophecy will align with their teaching of those prophecies which have yet been fulfilled concerning the Tribulation and Kingdom can be taught as carrying over to the church to show God is through with Israel. But these prophecies apply to Israel because of God's promise to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob that their seed would inherit the land. Revelation states 144,000 Jews will evangelize in the Tribulation and are sealed by God.
     
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  5. OldRegular

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    Strange that after months and years of denial that the concept of the Church, for whch Jesus Christ died, being a "parenthesis" or intercalation in God's Program for national Israel suddenly it appears as a valley amongst the mountain peaks. Obviously the testimony of "blessedwife318" and HankD that they had been taught this doctrine from Chafers theology had nothing to do with the hidden "Valley". {http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=80260}

    You ignore the facts recently posted {http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=99519} that Ryrie taught that the Church was a "parenthesis" in GOD's program for Israel and that Chafer said the Church was an intercalation in GOD's program for Israel. Dispensationalists do teach that the church was a mystery or unknown in the Old Testament which is of course a departure from the doctrine of the Church prior to the pre-trib-"snatching away" of the Church attributed to Darby.
     
  6. blessedwife318

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    Revmwc I find it strange that you are relying on tradition to make your point. It doesn't matter what people said in the 4th century, what matters is what the Bible says. Make your argument from Scripture as that is the only authority. Tradition means nothing.
     
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  7. blessedwife318

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    I guess they had been cornered enough that they finally are willing to admit they know what you are talking about.
     
  8. HankD

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    OR, you haven't been listening brother. There have been several, perhaps dozens of permutations of dispensationalism developing over the age of the church (and only recently given that title). Previously it had not been compiled into an organized system but elements within it were debated and argued over. Also many like myself do not accept every jot and tittle out of Dallas Theological Seminary.

    As for Darby, he is NOT very popular and not many dispensationalists give any credence to him (accept for Charismatics) because of the folly of his folks having visions of the rapture. This in and of itself is internally conflicting because the scripture having been completed we have no need of visions or unknown tongues.

    Anyway, I'll drop in later to see how goes the war.

    HankD
     
  9. revmwc

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    The Bible as I have shown in many post teaches a Pre-trib Rapture. I depend upon the Bible it proves the pre-trib view unless you twist verses to prove otherwise. This thread is to show that in fact the pre-trib Doctrine dates all the way back to the Bible times, Jesus and the Apostles. If you can't see that then there in lies the problem. The same problem those who fight it for years have. That is you must not look for the return of , the tribulation or the Kingdom in order to go against Paul saying God is not through with Israel, to prove your point that He is through with Israel.

    The Pre-Trib rapture carries with it the fact that God is not through with Israel and there in is why those who don't support must twist scripture to support that teaching.
     
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  10. revmwc

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    No I just went and found the context of the analogy, let see maybe we should start with the definition of an analogy, "Analogy is important not only in ordinary language and common sense (where proverbs and idioms give many examples of its application) but also in science, philosophy and the humanities. The concepts of association, comparison, correspondence, mathematical and morphological homology, homomorphism, iconicity, isomorphism, metaphor, resemblance, and similarity are closely related to analogy. In cognitive linguistics, the notion of conceptual metaphor may be equivalent to that of analogy.

    That is what OR was asked to do in other post and refused. When an anology is used it is not to taken as meaning that is what is being said.

    Seeing peak to peak and not a valley let us see how God hid the church from most O.T. prophets while giving us types of the church and the snatching away.

    Simple almost all Pastors and bible teachers use anologies (illustrations) to prove a point of scripture.

    It is a shame to protect a teaching that can't be found in the bible one musdt deny Bible truths to make that point. That is especially true of all who say God is through with Israel.

    Romans 11:1-2

    1 "I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
    2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,"

    Paul is reiterating what Isaiah said in chapter 14 of Isaiah verse 1-3, "For the Lord will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob.
    2 And the people shall take them, and bring them to their place: and the house of Israel shall possess them in the land of the Lord for servants and handmaids: and they shall take them captives, whose captives they were; and they shall rule over their oppressors.
    3 And it shall come to pass in the day that the Lord shall give thee rest from thy sorrow, and from thy fear, and from the hard bondage wherein thou wast made to serve,

    Clearly Paul stated God is not through with Israel. Clear if you don't need to twist, the pre-trib rapture teaching because it threatens the teaching of God is through with Israel.

    Both Paul and Isaiah show God is not through with Israel. It shows Israel back in the Land with God's hand on her for 7 years, then the Kingdom with Christ seated on the Thorne of David in Jerusalem with nature even at peace.

    Not sure if the amil view needs God to be through with Israel to suppot it or not but that really seems to be the heart of it.
     
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  11. revmwc

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    Strange how you ignored the part of the illustration use of the term, but I would have been better to say it as "Analogy is important not only in ordinary language and common sense (where proverbs and idioms give many examples of its application) but also in science, philosophy and the humanities. The concepts of association, comparison, correspondence, mathematical and morphological homology, homomorphism, iconicity, isomorphism, metaphor, resemblance, and similarity are closely related to analogy. In cognitive linguistics, the notion of conceptual metaphor may be equivalent to that of analogy."

    OR I asked in another post the context of it use, you refused. When an anology is used it is not to taken as meaning that is what is being said but as a tool to help folks understand.

    Trying to think of an anology to use.

    Saying the was a mystery or similar to a valley inserted between two peaks, that is an analogy. That doesn't mean God didn't plan it nor didn't know the church wouldn't come to place. He just didn't want to reveal it to the O.T. prophets at that time.

    Just like the words John heard in His vision and was told don't write that part, God didn't want it revealed.

    I might have come up with that analogy.

    As you drive on the highway and are stuck in traffic, you see all the cars in front of you and think there must be an accident up there! You can't see it because it is a mystery to you, that is how the O.T. prophets saw things in the O.T. and didn't see the time of the Church, it was there all the time they knew something else was there God just didn't reveal it. But once Christ came God revealed more of His plans to the writers of the N.T. and then finally to John in a vision. Thus the mountain valley analogy.
     
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  12. blessedwife318

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    I would agree that God is not through with Israel, but that does not prove a pre trib rapture.
    One has to do a lot of reading into the text to get a pre-trib rapture, but the again you read 6000 years for man before the rapture into 2nd Peter so that us not a surprise from you.
     
  13. revmwc

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    1st Thessalonians 1:9-10, take no reading into it

    9 "For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;
    10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come."

    They turned from Idols to God and waited on Christ return who would deliver us (believers) from the wrath to come.

    Revelation 6:17 shows us the wrath to come. 17 "For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

    What follows in chapters 7-19 is God's wrath poured out through vials or bowls upon the inhabitants of the earth.

    Paul said the Thessaloniacans were waiting on the son from heaven to save them from the wrath to come, the tribulation.

    No reading anything in it is perfectly clear.
     
  14. blessedwife318

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    You just proved that the rapture happens before His wrath, but you didn't prove that the entire 7 years is His wrath. In fact you proved it was not by quoating Rev 6:17 which is after 6 seals. So by your above quote you are putting the rapture at least after 6 seals are opened not before the tribulation starts.
     
  15. Darrell C

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    So when does the Rapture take place?

    There are only two positions, there will be a Rapture, or there won't be.

    If you cannot yourself suggest when it will take place, it shows you are out of place condemning another for taking a view that they, at least, consistently give a Scriptural Basis for.

    So do you believe there will be a Rapture and when will it take place?


    No, one does not have to do a lot of reading into to present the Pre-Tribulation Rapture, it is actually a matter of including many passages and balancing them in order to see that it is not possible that the Church be Raptured in the middle or end of the Tribulation.

    Answer this for me, if the Rapture takes place at the end of the Tribulation, prior to the Millennial Kingdom...who populates the Millennial Kingdom?

    If it just a matter of the Church being resurrected in one general resurrection prior to the Great White Throne...where is the Millennial Kingdom?

    If the Rapture is during the Tribulation, why isn't it listed in the events, and why is the Church not even mentioned within the events?

    The problem with those who oppose the Pre-Trib Rapture is that they confuse the Return of Christ, where no resurrection other than Tribulational Martyrs takes place, with the event described by Paul. He makes it clear this was a previously unrevealed truth, which negates the possibility that in view is the general resurrection of the dead, for most were aware of that basic fundamental of Old Testament teaching. Those who denied the resurrection of the dead, the Sadducees, were rebuked of the Lord for not knowing Scripture.

    So the point is, if you are going to support an a-millennial view (and please do not deny it), would you also please give your thoughts as to when exactly twenty years of study has brought you to understand the Rapture to take place.

    And, as a Young Earth Creationist, I would appreciate it if you could please explain this...

    Not interested in your antagonist's commentary, just curious why YEC is something to be ridiculed as well.


    God bless.
     
  16. Darrell C

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    That's good advice.


    God bless.
     
  17. Darrell C

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    Would you mind showing me where the Old Testament Prophets knew that Christ would come and then return to Heaven?

    Before the fulfillment of all prophecy?

    Can you show from Scripture how your Replacement Theology is valid?

    Consider:


    Christian views[edit]

    The early Christian theologians saw the New Covenant in Christ as a replacement for the Mosaic Covenant.[12] Historically, statements on behalf of the Roman Catholic Church have claimed her ecclesiastical structures to be a fulfillment and replacement of Jewish ecclesiastical structures (see also Jerusalem as an allegory for the Church). As recently as 1965 Vatican Council II affirmed, "the Church is the new people of God," without intending to make "Israel according to the flesh", the Jewish people, irrelevant in terms of eschatology (see "Roman Catholicism," below). Modern Protestants hold to a range of positions on the topic.

    In the wake of the Holocaust, mainstream Christian communities began the work of "undoing" supersessionism.



    So where exactly does your theology stem from?

    Not from Scripture.

    The very fact that Israel is seen in the Tribulation, and the Church is not, shows that God has not cast away her people.


    Facts?

    From "Church Fathers?" lol

    Who cares what they say...what does God say?

    And dispensationalists don't teach that the Church was a Mystery...Paul does:


    1 Corinthians 15:50-52

    King James Version (KJV)

    50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

    51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

    52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.



    It was not previously revealed that we would be, prior to the end of this creation and the creation of the new heavens and earth...all be changed.

    Paul defines a mystery for us, by the way:


    Romans 16:24-26


    King James Version (KJV)

    24 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

    25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

    26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:


    Yet you say...



    And that is the problem, the Doctrine of your Church takes precedence over the Word of God.

    That the Rapture is a First Century teaching corrupted by your Church over the centuries is evident when we see you disavowal of the very teaching of Paul.

    Or should I call him Saint Paul?


    God bless.
     
  18. Darrell C

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    Cornered?

    lol

    By people who simply make accusatory, derisive statements that have no relevance to a Doctrinal Discussion?

    Who ignore Scripture and then have the utter gall to deny they ridicule others?

    Who profess being premillennial then support an a-millennial that not only has a compulsive issue with Darby, but refuses to respond to any points raised?

    Who consistently spams Church Fathers and is applauded by his cheerleaders...



    ...who strangely overlook the spamming efforts of anyone, apparently, except a Pre-Trib believer...



    So tell me, proud member of the rabbit club, how exactly has the Pre-Trib position or it's adherents been cornered by the painfully lacking debate skills of those who teach the ridiculous theology of a-millenialism and those who apparently have not been able, after so many years...to even have the courage to say what their position actually is?

    Inquiring minds want to know.


    God bless.
     
  19. Earth Wind and Fire

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    There is NO rapture and NOT ONE of God’s people is going to be left behind. What will transpire is ALL of God’s people will be resurrected and changed and ALL of God’s people will be taken home to Paradise.
     
  20. Salty

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    You forgot the third position -

    It has already taken place.
    Some believed it happened in AD 70

    And even that has 5 different views...
     
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