The Contextual Israel in Romans 11:26

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Dr. Walter, Aug 2, 2011.

  1. Dr. Walter

    Dr. Walter
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    In that context "ALL ISRAEL" in Romans 11:26 is:

    1. The same Israel in verse 25 that is put in contrast with the elect "gentiles"

    2. It is what has been "cut off" in verses 11-23 that is grafted back in "again" in verses 11-23 and that is the ETHNIC NATION of Israe.

    3. The same Israel in verse 26 identified as "Jacob" and this term is NEVER used by scripture writers for Gentiles or Gentile elect (Mal. 3:6).

    4. The same Israel in verse 28 that is PRESENTLY enemies of the gospel are neverless "beloved" according to election by the Father and only ETHNIC ISRAEL has been defined as that enemy of the gospel and as a result was presently CUT OFF for that very thing.

    5. The same Israel according that God by election has a "remnant" of individuals called out of her in every generation in the past and present time of writing (vv. 1-4) and who will have an elect remnant called out of her until the fullness of the Gentile elect be called in and then "all Israel" according to God's promise of election will be saved in one day at Christ's coming (Rev. 1:7).

    6. In Romans 2:11-28 the context is ETHNIC JEWS who have been PHYSICALLY circumcised and yet the true Jew AMONG ETHNIC JEWS is the one whose heart has been circumcised and it is this same argument Paul continues in Romans 9:5-11 in regard to election AMONG ETHNIC JEWS as he distinguishes elect ETHNIC JEWS from elect gentiles in Romans 9:24-33.
     
  2. savedbymercy

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    In Rom 11:26 The All Israel shall be saved, is so, by the calling in of the Gentile Elect, The Election of Grace from among the jews and the election of Grace from among the Gentiles make up All Israel that God promised to Save.

    Jacob is Generic for God's Elect He Loved in Christ Rom 9:11-13

    11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth )

    12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

    13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

    Abraham's descendants merely of the Flesh are not the Children of God Rom 9:8

    8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
     
  3. Dr. Walter

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    Why can't you deal with the ton of evidence with any objective and substantial contextual responses???????? Why just repeat like a parrot an UNPROVEN and UNFOUNDED assertion?

    The immediate context of Romans 11:26 will not support your assertion at all. The preceding context demonstrates clearly that the term "israel" is used in contrast to CALLED GENTILES (v. 25) and that the character of the "Israel" in verse 26 is defined by the Biblical use and application of the term "Jacob" (v. 27) and that the Israel under consideration is the same Israel that was formerly "cut off" (vv. 9-22) and thus the same Israel "cut off" that will also be grafted back in "again" (vv. 23-24). It is the same Israel that is presently ENEMIES of the Gospel (v. 28).

    In other words you do not know what you are talking about - plain and simple as you have no objective, contextual response to the contrary evidence to your unfounded, unproven parroted assertion.

    Furthmore, where does the context demonstrate clearly and explicitly that Jacob and Esau represent gentile elect of any kind?????? Where??????? Just your imagined assertions.

    And just who is it that asserts that ONCE BORN Jews are children of promise (v. 8)??????????? Not I!!!! The whole point is that the promises are to ETHNIC ISRAEL (vv. 3-5) but not to ONCE BORN eithnic Israel but to TWICE BORN Ethnic Israel and this is a point you cannot possibly demonstrate by the immediate context to be wrong - all you can do is make pathetic unfounded assertions contrary to the immediate context.
     
  4. savedbymercy

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    A closer look at Romans 11 !

    The best way to deal with the contextual understanding of Rom 11:26 is to start from the very first verse. Actually in Chapters 9-11 what we have is Paul unveiling the Mystery ! That Mystery being that the Gentiles have been grafted into Covenant Israel, not National Israel of the Physical descendants of Abraham, but of those Physical descendants which were of Faith, The Israel of God within National Israel.

    Before getting started with a verse by verse analysis of Rom 11, here are some preliminary comments :

    Eph 2:11-22 & Rom 11:17

    Lets compare Eph 2:11-22 with Rom 11:17

    17And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

    Now the olive tree in Rom 11:17 is Covenant Israel [ not national Isreal]and its branches, the ones not being broken off because of unbelief, are jewish people of the nation of israel, then when the gentiles are taken from their wild olive tree [ Rom 11:17] and are grafted in with that Israel [ Covenant Israel], then they become part of Covenant Israel also Eph 2:19

    19Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

    Note, the saints, which would be those branches not broken off of Covenant Israel, those broken off were not saints..

    The True Olive Tree is Covenant Israel of which the grafted in Gentiles become part of.

    For the gentiles [ The elect ones] are no longer strangers to Covenant Israels promises Eph 2:12, 19 but are now recognized heirs of the same promises that Covenant Israel is heir to, with those branches that were not broke off by Gods Judgment for unbelief..

    BTW those natural branches that were broken off were not part of Gods Israel of promise from Gods perspective, they were not His foreknown people see [ Rom 11:2],

    for they had been cut off from the Israel of Promise, so we have pauls classic Rom 9:6 " that they are not Israel which are of Israel "..

    You see, some in covenant Israel had no root see [ Matt 13: 20-21 and Jn 15: 1-7] and were not chosen in christ [ Israel] the True seed israel..

    These jews were cut off from the olive tree [ Covenant Israel ] made spiritually blind [ see Jn 9 :39] and the chosen gentiles have been made to see [ Jn 9:39] and grafted into Covenant Israel, the Olive Tree, so now they are of Covenant Israel along with the natural Jews who were not cut off.. For Christ is the True house of Israel Heb 3:6

    6But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

    Holding fast with confidence is not a condition of being of Christ house, but a manifestation or effect of being of His House..
     
  5. savedbymercy

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    Rom 11:1-2

    1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

    By casting away the Nation of Israel, that is causing the National Covenant to cease, has God cast away His True Covenant People ? Ain't no way, for National Israel in and of itself was never Gods chosen Covenant people from a salvation stand point..

    vs 2a

    2 God hath not cast away his people [B]which he foreknew.[/b]

    All them Jews in National Israel were not those whom God foreknew in Christ to be conformed to His Image as per Rom 8:29

    29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.


    Those within National Israel He did not cast away, that would be the very small remnant belonging to the election of grace, even as Paul was one of those favored Jews..

    Many ethnic Jews from that nation will hear these words, as so will many gentiles who were not foreknown :

    Matt 7:22-23

    22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

    23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you or foreknew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

    So by casting away National Israel as His Covenant People Nationally, is by no means casting away His beloved covenant people [Israel] in christ..They are Two different people..
    If any ethnic jew is not one of the foreknown to be conformed to the Image of Christ, then they belong to merely Abraham's Physical descendants which are not the Children of God. Rom 9:8

    8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

    God has no promises whatsover to any people that don't belong to Him !
     
  6. TCGreek

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    Context seems to be pointing to ethnic Israel. It's hard to argue otherwise.
     
  7. savedbymercy

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    It cannot be ethnic Israel because, Abraham's Children according to ethnicity or the flesh are not the Children of God or Promise. Rom 9:8

    8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
     
  8. TCGreek

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    I find it interesting that you have ignored the whole of Romans 11 and all the specific references to ethnic Israel.

    Consider Romans 11:14, which is closer to 11:26 than 9:8: "If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them." KJV, emphasis added Paul has ethnic Israel in mind. How can you miss that?
     
  9. savedbymercy

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    tc

    On the contrary, I will address it verse by verse..I have already began ! See post #5

    And there is nothing in Rom 11 that will negate this Rom 9:8

    8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
     
    #9 savedbymercy, Aug 10, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 10, 2011
  10. savedbymercy

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    Rom 9:6


    Rom 9:

    6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel [elect], which are of Israel [corporate or national]:

    The setting aside of corporate Israel or National Israel, did not negate the Eternal promises of Elect Israel or the Election of Grace in corporate or national Israel.

    National or corporate Israel was not Israel [ to which the promises were made] but Elect Israel [ the remnant according to the election of grace] or The Israel of God.

    The Israel in blindness and cut off, was not the Israel to which the everlasting promises were made; The elect or chosen people of God to which the promises were made, has always been a remnant and very small one in corporate or national Israel.

    Rom 9:27

    Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea,a remnant shall be saved:

    Thats always been God's purpose.

    God's word of Promise as it regards ethnic Israel, " a remnant shall be saved" not all of it.

    If God comes back later and saves all ethnic israel without exception, then He contradicts His Purpose for ethnic Israel that " a remnant shall be saved" !

    A remnant can not mean all ! The very word is the greek word

    hypoleimma and means:

    remnant, remains

    to cause to be left over, to reserve, to leave remaining

    So only a partial of the Israel that God has promised to save is from among the ethnic jews, the rest are from the gentiles. !
     
    #10 savedbymercy, Aug 10, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 10, 2011
  11. TCGreek

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    So ethnic Israel is never referenced again?
     
  12. savedbymercy

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    You are ignoring what I have posted, I am going verse by verse through Romans 11. Yes Ethnic Israel is referenced several more times in Romans 11. Now if you want to address the points I have made so far, please do so and quit avoiding them.
     
  13. DHK

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    You have contradicted yourself. God's chosen covenant people was the nation of Israel. They have been set aside for a period of time, but not forever. He will bring them again underneath his everlasting love and care in due time (His time).
    The full verse is:
    God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, (Romans 11:2)
    --This is definitely speaking of the nation of Israel.
    Why are you going back to Romans 8:29 and taking Scripture out of context, scripture that is addressed to the saints at Rome?
    This has nothing to do with Romans 11.
    No. Paul became a Christian.

    Paul delineates three groups of people:
    Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God: (1 Corinthians 10:32)
    --Note: Jews, Gentiles, and believers. There are these three groups in the world and that is all. Paul was a Christian, not a Jew.
    Read the context (Mat.7:20).
    Jesus is speaking of false teachers, not the Jews.
    All you have done is take Scripture out of context. You haven't demonstrated anything.
    Again you are taking Scripture out of context.

    That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. (Romans 9:8)
    --You have referred to

    For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. (Romans 8:29)
    --this has nothing to do with the Jews. Why are you taking Scripture out of context?
    And verse 9:
    For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son. (Romans 9:9)
    --So in context he is speaking of the progeny of Isaac, not of Ishmael.
    And he is showing that Israel does belong to him; has been set aside for a period of time; but he will come back for them again.
     
  14. savedbymercy

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    God has not cast away His People [ In National Israel] whom He foreknew ! Rom 11:1-2

    1I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

    2God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew.

    Notice, paul asked the question, has God cast away His People, not His Nation, but the elect people whom He foreknew in Christ, who He predestinated [ like paul] unto the Image of His Son.

    Rom 8:29

    29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

    All the jews in National or Corporate Israel were not foreknown by God or Christ, but only the election of Grace.

    All the purposes and promises of God are sure to all the seed by Grace not Race.

    The jews as a nation fell into a false security of obtaining Gods Favour by race.

    Matt 3:9

    9And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
     
  15. savedbymercy

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    So Paul is correcting a misunderstanding, that the promises of God to Israel [ election of grace] have not been abrogated, but that those promises were not to national / corporate Israel, that which was blinded, but to Israel [ the election of grace] of which He was privileged to be part of, even as an ethnic Jew.

    Rom 11:1

    1I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

    So what Paul was Illustrating, that Gods promises to Israel [ election of grace] was still being kept by the conversion of ethnic Jews like himself. So its a mistake to say God has forsaken the promises to Israel [ the election ] because he is done with the nation.

    For each ethnic Jew, who as Paul, belongs to those who are foreknown in Christ, will experience conversion from their unbelief as He did.

    1 Tim 1:13-15

    13Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

    14And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

    15This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

    Paul is saying, that each Jew like me, who was ignorant [ Rom 10:3] and unbelieving, if they be of the foreknown in Christ [Rom 8:29] they also will experience the grace of the Lord being exceeding abundant towards them bringing faith to replace unbelief.
     
  16. Dr. Walter

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    Again, you jerk this text out of context. I have already challenged you to deal with verses 3-5 and you have consistently ignored this challenge. Verses 3-5 prove that Paul is dealing with ETHNIC ISRAEL and that verse 8 merely denies that the promises in verse 5 is to ONCE BORN ethnic Israel.

    3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
    4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
    5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.


    Note the absolute evidence that ETHNIC Israel is the subject above

    a. My kinsman according to the flesh
    b. Who are Israelites
    c. concerning the flesh

    Note that the promises pertain to them

    a. Who are Israelites TO WHOM pertaineth
    b. the promises

    There is no possible way that you can interpret verses 3-5 to be GENTILE and JEWISH elect or your spiritual Israel model.

    So don't keep repeating Romans 9:8 until you deal with this contextual foundation which you have not yet dealt with fairly or objectively or at all.
     
  17. Dr. Walter

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    His question is about ETHNIC ISRAEL but your kind of Israel is a mixture of Gentiles and Jews but Paul's Israel here is defined three ways:

    1. Israelite
    2. seed of Abraham
    3. tribe of Benjamin

    What Tribe are you in? This is ETHNIC ISRAEL Paul is referring to. He is bluntly asking has God cast away ETHNIC ISRAEL. Your answer is absolutely yes, but Paul's answer is not your answer and His answer is immediate


    GOD FORBID!

    You not only redefine the Israel Paul is introducing here but you contradict his answer in the remaining of your eisgetical responses in your entire post from this point forward.

    Your foundation is rotten and so your whole argument from this point forward is built upon a false foundation.​
     
  18. Dr. Walter

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    The people which he foreknew was the people previously defined in verse 1 and the people defined in verse one are not GENTILES mixed with JEWS or your model of Israel.


    1. "Israelite"
    2. "seed of Abraham"
    3. "tribe of Benjamin"

    He is talking about the predestined twice born ETHNIC ISRAEL of Romans 9:5 or the future NATION OF ETHNIC ISRAEL THAT WILL BE SAVED in Romans 11:25-28 - consisting of NO GENTILES AT ALL but only ETHNIC ISRAELITES

    3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
    4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
    5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
     
  19. Dr. Walter

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    Paul's argument is very simple, simple enough for even SBG to understand if he will only be HONEST and OBJECTIVE with the contextual evidence.

    Paul's contextual argument in Romans 11 runs like thus:

    VERSE 1 - The Subject - ETHNIC NATIONAL ISRAEL - has God cast them away because of their present rejection of Jesus Christ? Answer: NO


    1 ΒΆ I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.



    VERSES 2-9 - REASONS why ETHNIC NATIONAL ISRAEL has not been permenantly cast away by God.

    1. They are foreknown according to God's purpose of redemption

    2. Their rebellion is not proof that God has permently cut them off as they have a past history of such rebellion and a past history of temporary rejection by God and yet God NEVER cut them off permenantly in the past either.



    2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
    3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.



    Against what Israel? - Ethnic Israel
    Who killed the prophets, digged down thine altars and seek the life of God's prophets? Ethnic Israel


    3. Saved remnants in the past is proof in the past that God has never permenantly cut them off even in period of past rebellions and rejections of God's prophets.

    4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.


    4. Saved remnant in the present is proof that God has not permenantly cut them off NOW.

    5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.


    5. Their ungodliness and rejection of God does not change God's predestinated purpose for ETHNIC ISRAEL because God's purpose for them is based upon ELECTIVE GRACE not works:


    6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
    7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded



    6. Their rebellion is consistent with God's overall purpose of Grace and his ultimate salvation of Ethnic Israel.


    8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
    9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
    10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.



    7. Their present rejection of the gospel and rebellion against God is only TEMPORARY and in keeping with God's overall purpose:

    11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

    Ethnic Israel as a nation is still the subject as it is Ethnic Israel as a nation that is the "they" in verse 11 who have "stumbled" but because of God's purpose of elective foreknowledge their stumbling is not to a complete fall.

    The only way you can respond to the above contextual evidence is to play the game of eisgesis. That is you will take a verse and then jerk another verse out of some other book of the Bible or some context in the book of Romans not dealing with the specified subject of Romans 11:1 which is ETHNIC ISRAEL and do a patch quilt type of eisgetical response.
     
  20. Dr. Walter

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    False! He defines "his people" to be

    1. Ethnic Israelite - v. 1
    2. "seed of Abraham" - v. 1
    3. "tribe of" - v. 1

    His people by definition is ETHNIC ISRAEL as a Nation or does your kind of Israel have TRIBES? Which TRIBE are you of?

    Paul's point is that ETHNIC ISRAEL as a nation is God's chosen people according to God's elective grace and their PAST as well as PRESENT rebellion does not mean that God will not ultimately save them AS A NATION of TWICE BORN Jews.
     

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