The coupe de grace of deniers of original sin

Your question is misleading. All life comes from God: plants, all animals, etc. God created all. All life comes from Him.
Secondly, animals have souls.

And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so. (Genesis 1:30)
--Speaking of the animals God says that in them is "life." The Hebrew word for life is "nephesh" or soul. Animals have souls. They have life, the same life that a man has. The difference between man and animals is the spirit, not the soul. Man has a spirit in which he can communicate with God, whereas an animal cannot.

When an infant is born the spirit is separated from God. It will be separated from God until the time that he is born again, thus the necessity of the second birth. There is no such thing as "innocence" in this world today, since the entire creation is under The Curse. We are all born with a sin nature.

 

The point I am getting at Brother is this. The soul comes from God, and He places it in the womb of the mother. The heart beating is evidence that there is life. Now, if God gives the soul(life), then that shows that the soul came from Him. Now, sin is a transgression of God's law, correct? What sin did that little soul commit to cause the seperation of the soul from God?

 

He is born with a sin nature.
The sin nature separates him from God. He is not born innocent. No one is. We all fall under the condemnation of sin. We are all under the curse.
We are sinners because of our sin nature.
We sin because of our nature.
We sin because we want to sin.
Both of the above statements are true.

 

Convicted1, you are thinking! God gave us power or reason for something other than to repeat Augustinian dogmas.:thumbs:

 

All of these attributes are concerning our fleshly bodies, and I agree with everything you posted. But what sin does a baby(new born as well) willfully commit that causes condemnation of their soul?

 

Thank you kind Brother. There are two aspects of man, the fleshly man, and the soul/spiritual man. One comes from the ground(fleshly man) and will die "in Adam" because of Adam's sin. The soul dies when it sins willingly and God put them under condemnation, in need of being reconciled back to Him.


BTW, Brother Bob(banned on here) thought highly of you, if I remember correctly. On June 10th, 2007, he, my dad, and a deacon baptized me.

 

Note carefully DHK's post. Are we just supposed to believe him because he says something is true? Where is his proof, Scriptural or via reason that what he says is true? He sounds so humanistic to me, just regurgitating manmade unsupported 'man'ufactured dogmatic positions.:thumbsup:

 

Go back to the OT story of David praying for his child. He mourned and wept, praying to God that the life of the infant might be spared. God did not answer David's prayer, and the child died. David got up and washed himself, put on his royal apparel, and acted as if nothing had happened. His servants, astonished at his actions, asked him about them. He explained: while the child was still alive perchance God would change his mind and save the child, so I interceded. But when the child died, what more could I do? (my paraphrase). [now the most important part]

He shall not come to me, I shall go to him.

Though the child was born with a sin nature, David was sure that he would see his child in paradise. He had no doubt. He fell on the mercy of God.
--Abraham said: "Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?"

When it comes to infants, we leave them to God's mercy, not to our theology. "The secret things belong unto the Lord." We don't try to "figure everything out."

 

This is one pet verse that the DoGs use that makes me chuckle.

What lies do a new born babe commit.

"I really want to say 'goo goo', but I'm gonna say 'ga ga', 'glubbbbbly', pfhhthhhhahhshhhshhs'."

 

Convicted1, I certainly thought highly of Brother Bob! We did not see eye to eye on everything, but we certainly agreed on what salvation entails and the Christian walk. If we get that straight, we do well! I certainly hope all is well with him. Give him my best regards if he is still with us!

Time will right all wrongs my friend!

 

I agree with this, believe it or not. That baby's flesh died because he was born "in Adam". The fleshly death is unexcapable because of Adam. The eternal death is excapable by Grace through faith.

 

Oh yes. Psalms 58. Now for the truth as to the real context of that passage as opposed to a proof text used for completly diferent purposes by Biblicist.

If one would take the time to read this short Psalm in it’s entirety, one would come to the plain truth that this Psalm was NOT written in any way to support some notion of original sin or inherited depravity, not only because of the context but the fact that the Jews did not hold to inherited depravity in the least. Neither does it call all liars from the womb. There was no place in their theology for any such notion. Original sin was simply foreign to them.

The context of the Psalm clearly indicates two groups of individuals being addressed. From verse 3-9 David addresses the wicked and speaks clearly to their final destruction. David cries out to God to let “every one of them pass away that they may not see the sun.” He proclaims that God is going to destroy ‘all’ of them and wash His feet in their blood. Is DHK holding to the belief that God is going to wash His feet in the blood of innocent babies, millions of which are the product of the abortionist’s knife? God help us!

Starting with verse 10-11, David shifts his focus from the wicked and onto the righteous. He states, “10 The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance: he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked.
11 So that a man shall say, Verily there is a reward for the righteous: verily he is a God that judgeth in the earth.

One thing is clear. David is not trying to establish a dogma of original sin in this text in the least, but rather is simply contrasting the wicked with the righteous. He in NO way insinuates or states that the righteous are as the wicked, neither in birth nor in life.

In simple terms, David was just expressing in poetic terms that the wicked appeared to be wicked from the earliest light of moral agency, and that as soon as they were able to understand and communicate, even from a very early age, they appeared to him to be engaging in wickedness. Nothing in this passage establishes any such idea as original sin, or that all babies come forth from the womb lying as Biblicist, trying to get a proof text to walk on all four legs in support of original sin and wicked babies, wrongfully assumes.

 

He is still alive and well. The churches I go to and where he goes to do not work together(I left that association and went to another ORB assoc. that doesn't have correspondence with it). But he is a dear Brother in Christ.

 

Why in the world would David think that the child was born with a sin nature since he himself knew that he was "wonderfully made"?:

"For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well" (Ps.139:13-14).

 

So then, babies aren't born sinners from birth? I am talking in reference to the soul, that is. The soul dies when God accounts/imputes sin unto the soul, and is placed under condemnation.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup: These words are "music" to my eyes. LOL

 

HP: You cannot be serious Biblicist. So here we have a completely manufactured philosophical notion, without the least support Biblically or otherwise, to fix the problem these supporters of original sin know exists in their theory. Common sense tells them they need an explanation for the obvious wickedness that would incur if God condemned infants as sinners.

Abandon the false notion of original sin my friends, and you will not have to manufacture philosophical (or humanistic, as DHK likes to use) fixes such as Biblicist has illustrated for all to plainly see. :thumbsup:

 

David speaks of the body in Psalm 139. Read the context. He is not speaking of soul or spirit, but of the body. His body is fearfully and wonderfully made. I answered this already. How many times in a day does your heart beat? in a year? in a lifetime? Do you have to think about it to make it beat? What if you did? What if you had to voluntarily had to think about making each heart beat just like you do with each keystroke on your computer? How long would you live? We are fearfully and wonderfully made.
--And my soul (mind) knows right well. The word soul here is used in the sense of the mind. He knows these things. He also knows he is born with a sin nature, something you apparently don't know.