The coupe de grace of deniers of original sin

How on earth would you ever deduce that?
Did I ever say or even infer such a thing.
Life starts at conception. That is clear in Psalm 51:5, as well as the many verses relating to the birth of Christ. If you believe in your own rhetorical question you would have had no problem aborting Christ!!
And that is what you infer that I believe??
What garbage is this that you espouse, and for what reason?

 

What sin did the new born babe commit causing it to be born dead into the world. Sin brings forth death, so what sin did that new born babe commit?

 

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:​

It does not say "death passed upon all men for that one sinned" it says "all sinned". The sin is individual, the death is by inheritance. It CLEARLY says death is passed, not sin is passed.

Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many​

Here it says through the offense of one many be dead, not many be sinners.

Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.​

By one man's offense DEATH REIGNED. It doesn't say sin reigned.

The scripture makes a distinction, however. It says there is a difference:

Rom 5:16 And not as [it was] by one that sinned, [so is] the gift: for the judgment [was] by one to condemnation, but the free gift [is] of many offences unto justification.​

So it says "many offenses unto justification." If we get our sin nature from Adam, then Christ would only need to atone for one offense to eliminate the sin nature. Furthermore, once Christ had atoned for that one sin, no one would continue to be born with a sin nature because that one sin would have been forgiven.

Your faulty logic has destroyed the entire basis for your faulty belief system.

 

I am sorry for you and your wife's losses concerning your children. However, infants die the same as the elderly because their physical bodies are created "in Adam". This death is unexcapable. The soul dies when it willingly and knowingly sins, and God then places them under condemnation, and need to be reconciled back to Him.

 

The soul is "life." We see from Genesis one that animals have "life" or souls, and yet do not go to heaven or hell. Their life is extinguished. It is the spirit of man that lives onward. The spirit of man has been tainted by sin; now under the curse, as is all of creation. That is an inescapable fact. Nothing is innocent. "The whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain until now waiting for the adoption..."
As David threw himself at the mercy of God so do we. God shall do right. Everything does not have to fit into a small theological box made by man.

 

Well, then I need to erase Ezekiel 18:4,20 then? The soul that sinneth, it SHALL die, needs to be reworded, "The soul that sinneth, shall remain dead"? Or "shall die even more"?

 

I think our confusion(speaking past each other?) is that you have man being three parts, and I see man as two parts, body and soul. The soul comes from God, and it isn't tainted by sin until it knowingly, and willingly, sins.

 

IMO, that is mere speculation. Can you provide Scripture for that position.

 

Well, I see the words soul/spirit being used interchangeably. I know that there is a verse that states soul and spirit, but think Spirit is used in describing the Holy Spirit. In Ecc. 12:7 it states, "The spirit goes back to God who gave it." The prodical son came back, and His Father said he is alive again. To be redeemed, means to be bought back. How can you buy back something that wasn't yours to begin with? Restored. How can a soul born dead in sin be restored? The prefix "re" means again. Apostle Paul stated in Romans seven he was alive with the Law once, but the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. Then he went on to say that the Law deceived him, and slew him. How can you slay a "dead thing". Something can not be "deader" than dead. Whether we're dead one second, or one million years, we are still the same amount dead.

 

Well, it does say that the son shall not bear the sin inquities of the father, neither the father for the son. It also states that YOUR iniquities have seperated you from God. If we are seperated from God(soul) at birth, then what sin of the soul has that soul committed to bring forth this seperation?

 

Well, I believe that your position is blatantly and patently false(which you do mine as well ).

The father in that verse is their natural father. It is stating that we will bear the burden of our sins, and not those of another. It is OUR sins, not the sins of Adam and Eve, Moses and Aaron, Elisha and Elijha(sp?), that seperates us from God.

Well again, it is OUR sins that have seperated us from God. How can something be "re"stored, "re"deemed, without there first being ownership? I can't buy back the Taj Mahal, because I never own it to begin with.

I agree with this verse, just not the way you are purporting it.

 

conv

Well that all depends. If they are elect, though they are born sinners, they are not cursed, because Christ became a curse for them. No one Christ died for has their sin imputed to their Charge.

 

Then the elect are never sinners??

 

You didn't back up your claims with scripture, but your proof was anecdotal evidence. You frequently use the refrain of "anyone with a child knows..." or "if you ever had children..." Had you used scripture, I could have easily shown you how you wrongly interpreted it... but you didn't use scripture as your evidence, you used your own failures as a parent to demonstrate your point. Since your point is wrong, the only way I can demonstrate that to you is by showing you where you went wrong.

Yet, you cannot show us a scriptural basis for sin being passed. Romans 5 clearly says death, not sin, is passed ... and Ezekial 18 makes it clear that according to the law, one is not judged for the sin of an ancestor or child, but only for their own sin. So just where do you get the idea that sin is passed on in heredity?

"Opened to what" is irrelevant. Sin is sin. The law is not concerned with thoughts, beliefs, but only with actions or behavior. Adam was not a sinner until he broke the law by action. Otherwise, his eyes would have been opened as soon as he lusted. But his eyes were not opened until he had sinned.

It is grace that concerns itself with faith or beliefs.

Adam desiring potential spiritual gain... no way that could be considered lust, I guess. Sometimes I wonder if you think before you type.

Of course one can't get around that and be a good Calvinist. So if sin didn't come from God, then God must not be COMPLETELY sovereign then, right? I mean someone else besides God must have created sin, right?

Rom 5:16 And not as [it was] by one that sinned, [so is] the gift: for the judgment [was] by one to condemnation, but the free gift [is] of many offences unto justification.​

"Clearly seen" by the eyes of a sinner like you, but unsupported by scripture yet again.

This is true as it pertains to grace and faith - those are concerned with your beliefs. But can you show me where this is in The Law? And concerning Adam... perhaps you can show me from the following passage where it says that Adam was to maintain the right intentions:

Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.​

The only "law" in existence was to not eat of the tree. God didn't tell Adam He was going to be judging his thoughts and motives.

Jesus says that because all men are sinners and the only way to save them is by grace - it is grace and faith that concern themselves with beliefs and intents.

You have to be careful when reading Job because it is poetry written as a play. There are "wrong" statements in Job made by Job's associates, for example:

Job 15:1 Then answered Eliphaz the Temanite, and said,

Job 42:7 And it was [so], that after the LORD had spoken these words unto Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me [the thing that is] right, as my servant Job [hath].​

How do we know Eliphaz was wrong? God says he was wrong. Furthermore:

Gal 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,​

It says "from" the womb... not in the womb. Meaning they are out of the womb. It is reiterated by "as soon as they are born." Do you think a newborn can "speak lies" or do you think this is poetic language?

Perhaps the intended meaning of this poetic text was that they were all together sinful their whole lives?

Rom 8:10 And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.​

Clearly, they are separable. In fact, the scriptures say that death reigned over people even when no sin was imputed to them:

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.​

This is critical. This is how Jesus could die having no sin. If the sons of Adam inherit sin, then Jesus would have inherited sin. But sin is not passed, death is passed. If Jesus wasn't a son of Adam (a son of man) then he wasn't qualified to be our savior.

The whole context of Romans 5 is against your interpretation of verse 19. Ezekiel 18 demonstrates that the law does not hold a person accountable for the unrighteousness of an ancestor. When a person is judged, they are judged for their own sin. So when is a person judged?

Hbr 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:​

So we are judged AFTER we die. This means when we die, it is not a judgement on us. Our death is an inheritance from Adam, not an individual judgement.

You see - death and sin ARE separable. They are not the same thing. Sin is an action, and death is a consequence for that action. Sin is an action, death is a result of that action. The death we inherit is a RESULT of Adam's sin, but it is not an individual judgement. It is a global judgement represented in the Curse in Genesis 3:19.

You falsely believe that the moment Adam sinned, he died spiritually. But this demonstrably false.

Adam didn't die spiritually or physically until he was judged by God.

Physical Death

Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou [art], and unto dust shalt thou return.​

Spiritual Death

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.​

Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Rev 22:14 Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.​