The Cross and the Crown

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by av1611jim, Nov 1, 2004.

  1. av1611jim

    av1611jim
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    Many threads have addressed the topic of rewards. Some say rewards are for faithful believers, while others say that the cross is our only reward.

    I will state the topic of this discussion. I submit that Scripture always points unbelievers to the Cross while Scripture always points believers to the reward of Crowns.
    Therefore, while some say the warnings to believers has to do with losing salvation, I say the warnings have to do with rewards, i.e. crowns.
    Warnings to unbelievers have to do with eternity in_______(fill in the blank. Could be hell or Lake of Fire or whatever.)Warnings to unbelievers always has to do with God's wrath for unbelief in Christ. Warnings to believers always has to do with disobedience after being saved and with an eye toward sanctification. Big difference.

    Please use relevant Scripture, correctly applied.

    In His service;
    Jim
     
  2. James_Newman

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    We are servants of the Lord, if we have been redeemed by His blood. He owns us. This means service is our duty.

    1 Corinthians 7:23
    Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men.

    Romans 12:1
    I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

    Ecclesiastes 12:13
    Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

    Why should we believe that we are promised a reward if we do not do what is our reasonable service? If we do not fear God, and keep His commandments, as is our duty, should we expect so much as an at-a-boy at the judgment seat?

    Luke 17
    9 Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I trow not.
    10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

    This verse says we should consider ourselves unprofitable servants even when we do keep His commandments. At what point did we gain any assurance of rewards without working for them? The gift of eternal life is given freely to anyone who will believe, but where does it say that He has to crown us too? Give us one of those mansions He is preparing, and a couple of cities to rule over?
     
  3. Trotter

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    All of the rewards that we acquire are for the sole purpose of laying them at the feet of Jesus. Personally, I want to have as many of them as I possibly can!

    Did not Jesus tell us to lay up treasures in heaven?

    In Christ,
    Trotter
     
  4. Salinas

    Salinas
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    The rewards/crowns are conditional.
    Here's the proof.

    2Tim.2:11: It is a faithful saying : For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
    12: If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
    13: If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

    Col. 3:23: And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men;
    24: Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ.
    25: But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done : and there is no respect of persons.
     
  5. av1611jim

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    Salinas;
    Thank you.
    Some folks here would say you are wrong.
    I am wondering what they will do with the Scriptures you have posted?
    In His service;
    Jim
     
  6. James_Newman

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    There seems to be some misconceptions about the term 'reward' and whether or not it is always used to indicate positive things...

    2 Timothy 4:14
    Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works:

    I wonder how many crowns this man will receive?
     
  7. Phillip

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    AMEN Trotter, Preach on! [​IMG]
     
  8. michelle

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    ---------------------------------------------------
    This verse says we should consider ourselves unprofitable servants even when we do keep His commandments. At what point did we gain any assurance of rewards without working for them? The gift of eternal life is given freely to anyone who will believe, but where does it say that He has to crown us too? Give us one of those mansions He is preparing, and a couple of cities to rule over?
    --------------------------------------------------


    And where does the Lord indicate anywhere in the scriptures, that those saved, who lose rewards suffer punishment in Hell? Where does it say this? This is yours, and Lacy's contention and argument, to which is not supported with scriptures. No doubt we are to be continually in service to the Lord, and this is the Lord's urging those who are his to do so, and they indeed will, if they are truly THE LORDS. It is also giving us an indication of others as to whether they are of God, or not, as for our benefit and also theirs. God's word is for unbelieves as well, as they read these warning also, and are convicted by God through them as also the truly saved are also.

    There may be some who do not recieve a crown to pass at the feet of Jesus, HOWEVER, this does not at all ANYWHERE in scripture, tell us that they will not be with Christ in the millenial reign, or in heaven, nor in the New Jerusalem. These are saved people we are talking about, not destined for any punishment after they physically die, or are resurrected. THey LOSE their possible REWARD which would be shameful ENOUPH in the presence of the Lord who bought them with a price.

    love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
    michelle
     
  9. michelle

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    I also do not believe that there would be any saved person at the Judgement seat of Christ who does not have at least one reward, and that would be the crown of righteousness, which comes from their FAITH. They will at least have this one crown to give to the Lord.

    You must also ask yourself this question: Why is it that we give back to the Lord, the crowns that He has given us? Something to contemplate, and once you understand this, it will be clear as day to you, why what you believe is DEAD WRONG.

    love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
    michelle
     
  10. James_Newman

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    Michelle, what is a crown? If it is anything other than a symbol of reigning, then it is merely a shiny hat. Do you think that there will be anyone receiving crowns at the judgment seat that will not be receiving the authority that goes with that crown?

    2Tim 4
    6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.
    7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:
    8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

    henceĀ·forth
    adv.
    From this time forth; from now on.

    This crown of righteousness is not something Paul obtained by believing on the Lord alone, this was only something he could say he had layed up for himself at the end of his ministry, when he had fought the good fight, he had finished the course, and he had kept the faith. This is not in any way, shape, or form referring to his free salvation. This crown of righteousness is a reward for righteousness. Yes, it is Christ's righteousness through faith, believing that we through Him have died unto sin, and live unto God, a new creature created unto good works! But it is practical righteousness all the same.

    I really see only two possibilities at the judgment seat. He is either going to tell us well done good and faithful servant, or He is going to say depart from me, I never knew you. I think it would be presumption in the face of no scriptural evidence to say that everyone gets a party favor just for showing up. You already got that party favor, it's called the gift of eternal life. If we want to have a part in the kingdom, it is going to be as a reigning co-heir with Christ, or we will not be there.

    Now where someone spends that thousand years if they do not merit the reward of the kingdom is open to debate. The view that Lacy and I hold, that an unholy Christian will go to hell, is not the only theory on the block. But I think it holds up under scrutiny. Where do you suppose outer darkness to be, Michelle?

    Lamentations 5:16
    The crown is fallen from our head: woe unto us, that we have sinned!
     
  11. michelle

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    --------------------------------------------------
    I really see only two possibilities at the judgment seat. He is either going to tell us well done good and faithful servant, or He is going to say depart from me, I never knew you.
    --------------------------------------------------

    This is biblically IMPOSSIBLE. AS those who are standing before Jesus Christ at the judgement seat of Christ, are those who are RAPTURED and receive their glorified bodies and are IN HEAVEN. These are saved who make it to the judgement seat of Christ. Therefore, the Lord would NEVER SAY TO A SAVED PERSON, depart from me, I NEVER KNEW YOU. Jesus Christ actually said to those who believe in HIM that He will NEVER LEAVE US, NOR FORSAKE US.


    love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
    michelle
     
  12. michelle

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    --------------------------------------------------
    If we want to have a part in the kingdom, it is going to be as a reigning co-heir with Christ, or we will not be there.

    --------------------------------------------------

    As a saved believer, the kingdom of God is within me, and the coming literal kingdom is my inheritance in Jesus Christ as a saint. It is not a reward. It is an inheritance. We are adopted into the family of God upon our salvation.


    love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
    michelle
     
  13. michelle

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    --------------------------------------------------
    Lamentations 5:16
    The crown is fallen from our head: woe unto us, that we have sinned!
    -------------------------------------------------

    Did God forgive them? You see REPENTANCE from them IN THIS LIFE here, do you not?


    love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
    michelle
     
  14. michelle

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    --------------------------------------------------
    Where do you suppose outer darkness to be, Michelle?

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I believe you are failing to separate texts that deal specifically with Israel at the second coming of Christ and confusing them with the church. I believe outer darkness to be for the goats, that are separated from the sheep, to which are those who are dwelling on earth at the return of Christ to this earth after tribulation, and that these goats are put outside of the Holy City Jerusalem, and most likely the nation of Israel itself.


    love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
    michelle
     
  15. gb93433

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    1 Cor. 3:15, "If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire."
     
  16. michelle

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    --------------------------------------------------
    1 Cor. 3:15, "If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire."
    --------------------------------------------------


    And your point is? Are you saying this says they will go to HELL?


    Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
    michelle
     
  17. av1611jim

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    Michelle;
    What other place in Scripture is described a fire?
    You pretend to know if a person is saved or not by observing their works. Fine. So now you have become the Holy Spirit and can see the hearts of every one you encounter?
    No, ma'am.
    Discussing anything on any subject is pointless with you. I have seen how you ignore what is being said, just so you can repeat yourself without having to think about what you have been told.
    Please, read with comprehension.
    We are commanded to be holy.
    We are commanded to be filled with the Holy Spirit.
    We are commanded to refrain from sin.
    We are commanded to witness.
    We are commanded to study.
    We are commanded to love one another.
    We are commanded to pray for one another.
    We are commanded to love God.
    We are commanded to attend church.
    Now just what do you suppose would happen to the Christian who failed to do these things commanded by God?
    Do you suppose He will say, "Come on in thou lazy and unfaithful servant, the party's just started?"(sarcasm for emphasis)

    "Let us fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into His rest, any of you should seem to come short of it."
    "Let us labor therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief."
    "Thou He were a Son, yet learned He obedience by the things which He has suffered;"
    "That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises."
    "Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden underfoot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?"
    'For we know Him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people"
    I could go on and on. It is clear. These are saved people Paul is addressing. These are saved people Paul is warning!
    There really is no wiggle room.
    Are these commands of God? Yes.
    Does God command lightly? No.
    Does God enable the christian to obey His commands? Yes.
    Will God hold you accountable for disobedience? Yes.
    God has never winked at disobedience. His own Son had to obey, even to death. Unbelievers must obey the gospel. Believers must obey their Lord.
    No question left but one. Will you take heed? On THAT day, you will not be able to say "I did not know". On that day He will not listen to, "But Lord I thought it was a doctrine from hell".
    Please take heed to the warnings. Trust and Obey.
    In His service;
    Jim
     

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