The Cross is Useless,Pointless...

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by rigz, Apr 25, 2016.

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  1. rigz

    rigz
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    ...to the non-elect.

    If you're not elected to salvation;
    1. God has not chosen you:eek:
    2. Christ never died for youCry
    3. The Holy Spirit will never regenerate youFrown
    4. You are hopelessly losto_O
    5. You are ready condemned:confused:
    6. There is zero hope for youEek
    7. To you, salvation is 666% inaccessible:rolleyes:

    But despite all this, Dr. John Piper sees innumerable benefits of the cross to the non-elect

    In one sense, as soon as we sin we should be punished eternally. We shouldn't get another breath. There should be no reprieve. There should be no time given to us. So clearly then, in some sense, the time given to us is grace. And grace for a sinner requires some kind of payment or purchase or warrant from a holy God. And Christ would be the one who provides that.

    So I'm inclined to say, "Yes, the fact that the non-elect, the unbelievers all over the world are still breathing and have another chance to believe is a gift, just like the offer of the gospel is a gift. And that offer is provided by the cross.
    "

    So the first gift is the fact that after sinning the non-elect does not die right away?
    Weird, like we're they dying immediately upon sinning before the cross?

    And exactly how can those that God has eternally decreed as reprobated be said to have a 'chance to believe'?
     
  2. Revmitchell

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    If you are alive you have not been eternally decreed to be a reprobate.
     
  3. rigz

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    when did God elect you?
     
  4. Revmitchell

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    The moment I believed.
     
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  5. rigz

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    You are one in a bunch.
     
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  6. Revmitchell

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    Ok???

    Have a blessed day.
     
  7. TCassidy

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    Please post quotes from anyone on the forum who has indicated he/she holds to all the above. Thank you.
     
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  8. rigz

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    I'm quoting Calvinism's definition of non-elect
     
  9. rigz

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    You too sir!
     
  10. TCassidy

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    Please post volume, the page number, and paragraph and which translation of Calvin's Institutes Calvin so describes the non-elect thusly. Thank you.
     
  11. rigz

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    Book 3.23

    Should you find any or some or all of the points contradicting Calvin and his theories, feel free to quote the volume, page, paragraph and translation:)
     
  12. TCassidy

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    The Institutes of the Christian Religion is published in two volumes, so there is no "3.23."

    So, it would appear you were not being entirely truthful with your earlier attack.
    If you think you are being funny, think again. If you cannot support your claims you may either withdraw them and apologize or leave the forum. Your choice.
     
  13. rigz

    rigz
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    Are you sure about this?

    I said 'calvinism' not Calvin. So I don't have to quote Calvin works verbatim to prove my point. Whatever Calvin taught and stood for can be summarized in those points I made up there.

    Calvin's aberration of predestination is scattered all over his works and it is not possible to quote all of it. But in a nutshell, he believed in double predestination; to life and reprobation, a fact he repeated one too many times.

    Look at this quote;
    In Latin of you insist:)
    "Praedestinationem vocamus aeternum Dei decretum, quo apud se constitutum habuit, quid de unoquoque homine fieri vellet. Non enim pari conditione creantur omnes; sed aliis vita aeterna, aliis damnatio aeterna praeordinatur. Itaque, prout in alterutrum finem quisque conditus est, ita vel ad vitam, vel ad mortem praedestinatum dicimus.

    By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death
    Inst
    . III. ch. XXI. ยง 5 (Opera, vol. II. pp. 682, 683).
    http://www.ccel.org/ccel/calvin/institutes
    (Opera was Calvin's biography where he initially mentioned it)


    I saw some here strain to imagine a distinction between 'decretive' and 'permissive' will of God. Calvin was categorical that men's eternity was eternally decreed by God.

    Let's look at a soul predestined by God's eternal decree to damnation against my points;
    1. Has God chosen him? Yes to damnation. So my first point is wrong since I said the non-elect is not chosen. For this I apologize to the board.

    2. Did Christ die for him? No because Christ died to save and he is not saved. So I as right unless somebody explain to me how Christ died for those ordained to perish.

    3. Can the non-elect be regenerated? Regeneration is for those who are saved. Else explain how spirit filled souls end up in hell

    4. Is the non-elect hopelessly lost? Actually that's an understatement. God,according to Calvin, designed him lost!

    5. Is the non-elect already condemned? Of course! He was created condemned..son of perdition

    6. Is there any hope for the non-elect? Of course there is hope...lots of hope that he will make it to hell just as God eternally decreed

    7. Is salvation 666% inaccessible for the non-elect? Actually it is 667% seeing that there is NOTHING that can work against God's eternal decree

    Once again, note Calvin was Categorical God is the AUTHOR of ALL;
    3:23:6 or Book 3, Chapter 23, paragraph 6

    If God merely foresaw human events, and did not arrange and dispose of them as his pleasure, there might be room for agitating the question, how far his foreknowledge amounts to necessity; but since he foresees the things which are to happen, simply because he has decreed that they are to happen, it is vain to debate about prescience, while it is clear that all events take place by his sovereign appointment."

    God's foreknowledge of the future stems from His decree of the future. How can a man sentenced to damnation in eternity escape it or be said to be a beneficiary of the Cross?
     
    #13 rigz, Apr 26, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2016
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  14. Martin Marprelate

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    And who are these non-elect? Can you name names? Have you been up into heaven, had a look at the Book of Life and found your name missing there, or anyone else's name?

    Here is the word of God to you, Mr Rigz, "And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day" (John 6:40).

    So, Mr Rigz, if you have not trusted in the Lord Jesus Christ, now is your opportunity. Trust in Him and in His shed blood to save even such a wretch as you, and you will have everlasting life. If you already have trusted in Him, you can tell all your friends that 'Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners' (1 Timothy 1:15), and that if they will come to Him, He will by no means cast them out (John 6:37).

    '.....The one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.'
    'This is added for the consolation of the godly, that they may be persuaded that they have a clear way to Christ by faith, and that as soon as they commit themselves to His faithfulness and care, He will receive them kindly. Hence it follows that the teaching of the Gospel will be beneficial to all the godly, because none offers himself as Christ's disciple who does not in return feel and experience Him to be a faithful and true teacher........Whoever is not satisfied with Christ, but enquires curiously about eternal predestination desires, as far as lies in him, to be saved contrary to God's purpose.' [Calvin's Commentary on John 6:37b & 6:40. Translation by T.H.L. Parker. Volume 4 in the Eerdeman's edition of 1959, Page 162 :p]
     
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  15. rigz

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    Non-elect are those who according to Calvin God predestined to damnation by His eternal decree as He predestined the rest to eternal life.

    My point was and is that if indeed God in eternity by His eternal decree condemned some to damnation, then to such, the cross is meaningless.

    I find this doctrine so alien to scriptures not to mention high blasphemy that God 'for His own pleasure and glory' creates hell fodder and then proceeds to punish them precisely for conforming to His will

    PS
    I by the grace of God have accepted Christ, and He is my Lord and Savior
     
  16. Kevin

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    I was curious (usually gets me into trouble) and looked this up online. Not trying to call anyone out on this but I did find it listed as 4 volumes, and the quote in post 13 is there.

    I will now step back and watch what comes next in the thread.

    http://www.biblestudytools.com/history/calvin-institutes-christianity/book3/chapter-23.html#

    edit
    I also looked at my Bible study computer program and it shows as 4 volumes. Probably the difference between print and electronic versions.
     
    #16 Kevin, Apr 26, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2016
  17. TCassidy

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    Both of my print versions are 2 volumes. :)
     
  18. TCassidy

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    My request was in post 7, long before post 13. I was asking him to support his original assertion in post #1
    I still haven't seen such a quote from any volume of "Institutes" or from any Calvinist writing.
     
  19. Martin Marprelate

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    Again I ask, who are these people? Name some names. have you seen their names missing from the Book of Life?
    The cross is meaningless to no one. Let him trust in Christ and His blood shed upon that cross for sinners and he will be saved. Then, of course, he will understand that it is God who loved him before the foundation of the world, overcame the wickedness of his unbelieving heart by giving him new birth and brought him to repentance and faith
     
  20. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson
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    However, the digital Christian Classics Ethereal Library's version has a "Book Third." So, you may be seeing the difference between digital and dead tree.
    http://www.ccel.org/ccel/calvin/institutes.toc.html
     
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