The Cross Saves!

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by tyndale1946, Feb 17, 2003.

  1. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946
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    Where the Arminian will only say: "I could not have gained my salvation without Calvary," the Calvinist will say: "Christ gained my salvation for me at Calvary."

    From The death of death in the death of Christ by John Owen... From the introductory essay by J.I. Packer... Brother Glen [​IMG]
     
  2. Frogman

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    Amen!
    Bro. Dallas
     
  3. Rev. G

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    Amen. [​IMG]
     
  4. npetreley

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  5. Yelsew

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    Hogwash!

    The instrument of death cannot be the savior!

    The one who sacrificed himself on the Cross says that our individual believe is what saves. My trust is in Jesus.
     
  6. Frogman

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    The mercy seat in the tabernacle and in the Temple are not approachable without the priest first approach the Brazen Altar, next is the Laver, where the hands of the priest are cleansed because of the blood of the sacrifice (ceremonial defilement) typifying defilement, then I believe is the altar of incense, typifying prayers (intercessions) for His people, then the veil behind which is the mercy seat, to approach this mercy seat without blood, or in defilement renders it a place of judgement.

    The veil is now torn in the middle, from top to bottom, revealing the mercy seat, but still it is unapproachable without the work of Christ on the Cross.

    The Cross, I do not believe signifies the altar, I believe this is signified by the body of Christ, the place where the Judgement is carried out on the offering; the cross is the means, but the altar (Brazen--signifying judgement; brass) is the body of Christ, it is in His body that His people have been judged, it is His resurrection, which verifies His Holiness or Righteousness, thus, I believe the Brass Laver; and it is His prayers of intercession the Father hears; and He has entered into the Heavenly to pour His Blood upon the place of God's Judgement (the Ark of the Covenant) whereby it becomes a mercy seat, over and above which God has promised to commune and meet with His people.

    Only Because Christ went up Calvary's hill and for sin condemned sin in the flesh. All who enjoy an interest in this which is now full eternal reconciliation do so because their names were written by the Hand of God before the Foundation of the World.

    This is more pure than any doctrine which tells me man must choose, why, because it is available to even our most vile enemy, all that it rests upon is the Will of God, and does not rely upon prejudiced, nationalistic men.

    God Bless.
    Bro. Dallas
     
  7. romanbear

    romanbear
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    Hi Tyndale; [​IMG]
    Actually your wrong. I would suggest you study Arminianism before making such statements. Your attempt at trying to put words in there mouths shows you are ignorant of Arminianism. You misrepresent the truth with such statements. I obtained salvation through my faith in Jesus Christ. Actually Calvinist say they are saved before believing and repenting or having faith. a non biblical doctrine... This below is the actual 5 points of Arminianism as presented at Dort. Please bear in mind that I am not an Arminian.

    1. God from eternity past determined to save all who believe in Jesus and to leave the incorrigible and unbelieving in sin and under wrath..."

    2.Christ died for and obtained redemption and forgiveness for all,but these benefits are effective only for those who believe on Christ.

    3.Man cannot "think". will or do anything that is truly good,and that includes "saving faith" But must be regenerated

    4.That God's grace is absolutely essential for Salvation,but that it may be resisted.

    5.That those truly saved through faith in Christ are empowered by the Holy Spirit to resist sin; But weather they could fall away from the faith "must be more particularly determined by the Holy Scripture,before we our selves can teach it with full persuasion of our minds."
    Romanbear [​IMG]
     
  8. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946
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    I believe I will let the true Calvinist brethren argue about Dort... I know none of the Primitive Baptist me included believe we were saved before the foundation of the world. We were in election before the foundation of the world by the foreknowledge of God and predestinated to be conformed in the image of his Son... Since God fulfills all his promises being elected we are as good as saved eternally... Unless you believe when Christ said it is finished he didn't finish the work his Father sent him to do?

    The way I understand what Packer is saying... Christ died... It's up to me to make my salvation possible... That is the Arminian view!... The Primitive Baptist view... Without Christ personally dying for me... Salvation is impossible!... Brother Glen [​IMG]
     
  9. romanbear

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    Hi Tyndale;
    If your interested in what you claim such as Calvinism and would like to know the truth of what it actually is read on this is the Calvinist response to the Arminian 5 points of faith;

    1.Because the whole race has fallen in Adam and become corrupt and powerless to believe,God draws out of condemnation those whom he has chosen unto Salvation,passing by others.

    my input;
    This statement above clearly indicates God as a respecter of persons.

    2.The Children of believers,as long as they do not manifest the contrary,are to be reckoned to be elect.

    My input;
    this above is inherited election

    3.God has decreed to bestow faith and perseverance and thus save those whom he has chosen to salvation.

    My input;
    again in paragraph 3 God is indicated as a respecter of men.

    4.God delivered up his Son Jesus Christ to die on the cross to save only the elect.

    My input;
    Again respecter of person

    5.The Holy Spirit externally through the preaching of the gospel,works a special grace internally in the hearts of the elect, giving them power to believe.

    My input
    A special grace is not regeneration.This word means saved

    6.Those whom God has decreed to save are supported and persevered by the Holy Spirit so that they cannot finally loose their true faith.

    My input;
    this is not in the Bible.Totally unbiblical

    7.True believers do not carelessly pursue the lust of the flesh,but work out their own salvation.

    My input;
    A clear indication of works which are necessary.This is contradictory to the Calvinist I write to today

    I know there are only 5 points to the tulip but if you'll look you'll see that the last two were combined later on with the others making a total of 5.
    Romanbear
     
  10. Yelsew

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    When Jesus said "it is finished", He eliminated all possibility of works being a means to salvation. Nothing left for mankind to do! Mankind has not been able to obey all of God's law, the purpose of which is to show us our need of a savior. Jesus, God incarnate, came to us to be that savior. His "tour of duty" was a mere 33 years, then he self sacrificed for us, being lifted up on a Roman instrument of death, dying, having his blood spilled for us, then being buried in a grave that could not hold him and ascending back to the Father and his former Glory.

    Now, instead of absolute obedience to the law, which we continually fail at, we also have an advocate who speaks on the behalf of all who confess him before men. Therefore when before the Judge, we are well represented because we not only have his sanctifying mark of "belief in the Judge's Son" on our spirit, but we have him identifying us as his so that the Father grants us pardon from sin and does not cast us into the lake of fire.

    When did all this occur? Was it before the foundation of the world? Surely the Lamb of God was so ordained, for the Lamb of God Created all there is, including the evil by which we are tested. Surely Salvation of man was foreordained, or there would not have been a sacrificial Lamb of God. Surely the Christ chose from before the foundation of the world those who are appointed to "build his church" and perpetuate faith in Him, and those who would be martyred for his sake. It is through them that we all have received, and continue to receive under God's prevailing grace, the Gospel message which we can accept or reject of our own free will. When we accept it we become building material for the church. If we reject it we, after our natural death, are cast into the lake of fire like useless wood, hay, and stubble which is completely consumed in fire.

    Human rejection of God is not normally a "once for all time" condition, for the Christ continues to stand at the door and knock even while we are on our way to destruction. If, at any time before our natural death, we hear and open the door, by acknowledging Jesus as the Son of God, we can be redeemed (regenerated) so long as God's Grace prevails. Salvation is therefore intended for all mankind by man's belief in Jesus, the Son of God, the Messiah.
     
  11. romanbear

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    Hi Tyndale;
    Calvinist aren't alone in the truth of this statement of yours below;
    ---------------------------------------------------
    The Primitive Baptist view... Without Christ personally dying for me... Salvation is impossible!... Brother Glen
    ---------------------------------------------------
    Christ himself said so.None have indicated otherwise that I'm aware of
    Romanbear
     
  12. Frogman

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    His blood was not spilled this denotes an accident occurred. His Blood was poured out by the predetermined will and purpose of God. In fact, not one of the sacrifices, from the one providing the picture to Adam to the Cross, was spilled, but each was shed with atonement and finally reconciliation in view.

    God Bless
    Bro. Dallas
     
  13. Frogman

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    How can there be no room left for the works of man if man must choose to accept or reject from His own will?

    I submit there cannot be an ability to accept Christ apart from the Spirit of God (one emminating from within man) without this being a work in itself.

    God Bless.
    Bro. Dallas
     
  14. npetreley

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    IMO the chronology is purely academic. I think that from our perspective we weren't saved before the foundation of the world, but I don't know if that describes it from God's perspective. Since there's no way to know for sure how it all looks from God's perspective, it's impossible for us to say.
     
  15. 4study

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    Salvation is not a possession (" my salvation").
     
  16. romanbear

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    Hi 4 study; [​IMG]
    Very well put. Short and to the point. I like that. [​IMG]
    Romanbear [​IMG]
     
  17. Frogman

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    In truth, if God saves because I chose to believe, this makes Him a respecter of persons, saying in essence, This man believes, let's redeem him. Yelsew has already argued that all men have faith, thus, to delineate faith in Christ (logically) delineates respect of persons. The only way to reconcile this is to know of a truth that God was in Christ redeeming the world to Himself, and that the persons enjoying this redemption are the elect.

    These others do not believe, let's not. Redemption is the result of the Will of God, from Beginning to End.

    Bro. Dallas
     
  18. Yelsew

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    Do you believe that George Bush is the current President of the United States of America? How much work did you do to come to that belief?
     
  19. Frogman

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    i also believe George Washington was the first President, but I didn't know him personally either. Believing historically is not knowing personally either. Believing historically does involve the intellect of man, knowing Christ personally cannot involve that intellect, but is resulted from that intellect of man being acted upon by the Holy Spirit. Thereby providing a personal interest in Christ.

    Bro. Dallas
     
  20. Yelsew

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    No, God made salvation available to all mankind with no respect for any. He is no respecter of man because any man no matter who, or of what status in life he may have can come to believe, and thus be saved. God saves, not because you chose, but you chose because God saves. God established salvation and the manner in which man can partake. It is now up to man to accept (believe) or reject (refuse to believe) what God has offered. God remains no respecter of man.
     

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