The Curse of the Law

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Heavenly Pilgrim, Oct 6, 2006.

  1. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim
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    Did Christ free us from the curse of the law? What does the curse of the law consist of?
     
  2. BobRyan

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    The Law demands that we suffer the second death -- the wages of sin is NOT "some inconvenience sufferred after death in protestant purgatory".

    The wages of sin is the "Second death" in the Lake of Fire.

    Romans 6:31.

    And the one who knows much and is condemned for his sins - refusing the Gospel and choosing his own way "of him MUCH will be required" in the lake of fire. Luke 12: 48-52.
     
  3. BobRyan

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    The wicked are NOT spared from the curse of the Law that "binds all mankind" under sin.

    Do NOT miss this!!! Draw a BIG Key in your Bible next to this verse. Paul uses KEY PHRASES. To understand Paul you must know HIS definition for HIS key phrases. The key phrase above is "UNDER THE LAW". In today's rebellion many WANT the term to mean "those that WANT to OBEY the LAW are those UNDER the LAW". Paul's Gospel in chapter 2 already fully refutes that. Here in chapter 3 Paul spells it out clearly - "UNDER THE LAW" is his term used to expose the idea of being fully CONDEMNED by the LAW. His term "become ACCOUNTABLE to God" is used exclusively in the NEGATIVE condemning sense. Need more proof? vs 20!


    Paul makes the point clearly here that he has NOT used the LAW as a MEANS of salvation. He also gives us ANOTHER KEY PHRASE - "works of the LAW". This concept IS NOT USED in context of someone that accepts Christ as Savior and then chooses to OBEY God. Rather it is CLEARLY used as an ALTERNATE to a Savior. This is not about someone COMBINING Salvation with OBEDIENCE it is about someone DENYING the need of salvation and opting for a system of WORKS without the Savior.

    Paul's statement also tells us that as long as the concept of SIN is valid (as long as a being has the possibility of Sinning) the LAW exists and is in force,
    for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  4. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: You beg the question. You once again assume imputed guilt when no such doctrine is or can be established from this verse. The question is not whether all men are sinners and are guilty before God. NT Scripture plainly calls all men to repentance, showing that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. All men are bound under the curse of the law for the simple reason that all have sinned, not that all were born sinners. BR is reading into Scripture that which simply is not stated or implied. Sin is not a contagion of the flesh, but is a judgment of God upon the condemned selfish act of willful rebellion against a known commandment of God. Sin takes place squarely within the will of man and always involves a choice of selfishness as opposed to benevolence or good-willing towards God and man.



    HP: Paper ducks have no place in real meaningful discussion. Who is BR speaking about when he says ”‘many WANT the term to mean those that WANT to OBEY the LAW are those UNDER the LAW"? Not anyone involved in this discussion that I have witnessed. Again, all the texts supports is the truth that all are unde4r the law because all are sinners. The text in no way establishes any dogma of imputed sinfulness such as BR tries to imply that it does. He simply begs the question.



    HP: You are long on words and short on substance. Nothing you have said or pointed to implies or substantiates your claim of imputed guilt period. You are assuming without any evidence your belief.




    HP: Are you telling the listener that salvation is accomplished apart from the willing participation of the man forming intents of repentance and exercising faith in Christ? Those are indeed works of man, thought of in the sense of ‘not without which’ not ‘that for the sake of.’ If you are, you are espousing predestination of the saved and damned, for if one is born in such a state as to make all possibility of obeying God impossible ( the dead log theory) man has absolutely nothing to do with his salvation or damnation, for it is all predestined by God apart from anything man does. When you create man without the abilities to respond, you fall straight into the trap of determinism. Is that what you believe? I never thought so anyway.

    I believe the Scripture presented is simply stating that once men have became sinners by their own selfishness, that there is nothing they can do to merit salvation. They stand before the law guilty, and must have a Savior to atone for their sins. Obedience to the law is not a means, nor can it be considered in any way as the grounds of salvation, once man has sinned and became guilty before God. By the works of the law, no sinful man shall be justified before God. That is the clear statement and only implied notion of this text.

    I would sum up this text as follows. This verse is warning all men that have chosen to sin and as such became sinners, (which is the plight of all men that have reached the age of accountability in our present dispensation,) and THEN try to develop a plan of works in order to inherit salvation without a Savior, that such is impossible to accomplish. No man can use that which only condemns their sinfulness as a means of salvation. Once men sin, they need a Savior, an Advocate to atone for sins that are past. Without such an Advocate and atonement being made, there is no remission of sins, but rather only a fearful looking forward to the wrath occurred as a direct result of their sins and the condemnation imposed by the sanctions of the law.



    HP: I would agree IF you are stating that salvation only sets aside the demands of the law for sins that are past. In this I believe we totally concur. The possibility of sin, and its incurred condemnation, is always present as long as we remain in this present world.
     
  5. BobRyan

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    The curse of the law is applied for sins committed as you point out. And "forgiveness of sins that are past" is the forgiveness given to us each day according to Peter.

    WE agree on that.

    My point in Romans 3 is that the deeds listed do not mach your actual comitted deeds do they? They are in fact the "inclination' of the sinful nature.

    Notice what is listed "the details" in the text.

    The Sinful nature of all mankind –


    9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;
    10 as it is written, "" THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
    11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;


    12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.''
    13 "" THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN GRAVE, WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY KEEP DECEIVING,'' "" THE POISON OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS'';
    14 "" WHOSE MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING AND BITTERNESS'';
    15 "" THEIR FEET ARE SWIFT TO SHED BLOOD,
    16 DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR PATHS,
    17 AND THE PATH OF PEACE THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN.''
    18 "" THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES.''


    19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God;
    20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.


    Is it really your claim that you have never sought after God? Do you really think that not a soul has ever done that?

    The ONLY way that text works is when viewed as a description of the inherited sinful nature.
     
  6. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: Well, now that you say it that way we may not agree. IF you are suggesting that due to our standing as believers that somehow we are granted forgiveness apart from the stated conditions of repentance and faith, I would not agree. If God calls on the unbeliever to repent and forsake his sins, all the more would He require that of us that have tasted of the life made possible to us via salvation. “Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?” Ro 2:3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? Ro 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.



    HP: There is a distinct separation that exists between and inclination or proclivity to sin and sin itself. One is simply what it says, an inclination or influence, while sin is nothing short of a formed intent of the will in agreement with that selfish influence, impulse or proclivity. James clarifies this is detail. Sin is conceived when the will yields itself to the influence, not before. If Scripture mentions ‘committed deeds, it is not speaking of a mere influence or a proclivity to sin, but rather it is speaking directly to the formation of an intent of the will denoted as sin.

    In Romans 3 note carefully the wording. “Ro 3:12 They are all GONE out of the way, they are together BECOME unprofitable;” There is not the slightest hint of imputed sin in this passage a or indication that it is speaking of mere inclination to sin. It is speaking directly to their deeds.



    HP: There is not one mention of a sinful nature in this passage, i.e. from birth. The nature (if one sees a nature implied) that is addressed here, is a direct result of their formed habits of willingly allowing evil influences and proclivities to control the formation of intents that necessitate the subsequent actions. “ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;” When you assume without any proof or evidence the notion of imputed guilt, you are begging the question. The text in question clearly indicates the willing rebels they have ‘became’ but in no wise indicates imputed guilt due to the sin of Adam in the least.



    HP: Only if one is predisposed to a certain dogma of original sin and is in desperate need of a proof text.
     
  7. Claudia_T

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    What is the Curse of the Law?

    Zechariah 5:
    1: Then I turned, and lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and behold a flying roll.
    2: And he said unto me, What seest thou? And I answered, I see a flying roll; the length thereof is twenty cubits, and the breadth thereof ten cubits.
    3: Then said he unto me, THIS IS THE CURSE that goeth forth over the face of the whole earth: for every one that stealeth shall be cut off as on this side according to it; and every one that sweareth shall be cut off as on that side according to it.
    4: I will bring it forth, saith the LORD of hosts, and it shall enter into the house of the thief, and into the house of him that sweareth falsely by my name: and it shall remain in the midst of his house, and shall consume it with the timber thereof and the stones thereof.


    It is referring to the 10 commandments, one side of them and then the other....
     
    #7 Claudia_T, Oct 7, 2006
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  8. Claudia_T

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    unconfessed and un-repented-of sin

    everyone who has that will be involved in the Curse of the Law.
    (See Zechariah 5:1-4 as posted above)


    Jesus provided a way out by dying in our place but that will be of no avail to any of us if we do not accept His sacrifice and then go on to begin walking now in the way of His Law. He didnt die for us to give a license for us to sin.

    Mt:5:17: Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

    1Jn:3:8: He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

    "They set their mouth against the heavens. . . . And they say, How doth God know? and is there knowledge in the Most High?" "These things hast thou done," God says, "and I kept silence; thou thoughtest that I was altogether such an one as thyself: but I will reprove thee, and set them in order before thine eyes," Psalms 73:9-11; 50:21.

    "If thou seest the oppression of the poor, and violent perverting of judgment and justice, . . . marvel not at the matter: for He that is higher than the highest regardeth." "There is no darkness, nor shadow of death, where the workers of iniquity may hide themselves." Ecclesiastes 5:8, Job 34:22.

    God's law utters condemnation against every evil doer. He might disregard that voice, he might seek to close his ears and hide his eyes against its warning, but it is of no use. It will follow him everywhere he goes. It makes itself heard to his conscience. It destroys his peace of mind. And if he persists in not heeding the voice of warning, it will pursue him to the grave. And in the judgment it will condemn him.

    Re-iterating this (referring to the 10 Commandments):

    Zechariah 5:
    1: Then I turned, and lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and behold a flying roll.
    2: And he said unto me, What seest thou? And I answered, I see a flying roll; the length thereof is twenty cubits, and the breadth thereof ten cubits.
    3: Then said he unto me, THIS IS THE CURSE that goeth forth over the face of the whole earth: for every one that stealeth shall be cut off as on this side according to it; and every one that sweareth shall be cut off as on that side according to it.
    4: I will bring it forth, saith the LORD of hosts, and it shall enter into the house of the thief, and into the house of him that sweareth falsely by my name: and it shall remain in the midst of his house, and shall consume it with the timber thereof and the stones thereof.


    The Ten Commandments hold a Curse over all who disregard them.
     
    #8 Claudia_T, Oct 7, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 7, 2006
  9. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: Excellent post! I believe what you share here Claudia is the gospel truth. May we be attentive to that testimony of conscience, and may we be found to be doers of the Word and not hearers only. “Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
    Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

    What heavenly good will a testimony of a work done in our life in the past do us if in fact we are found to be living in contrast to it?
     
  10. BobRyan

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    When we consider the "Sin problem" that the Gospel solution must address - we instantly find 3 main issues.

    #1. The sins we DID commit.
    #2. the sins we ARE committing - and are inclined to continue doing.
    #3. The sinFUL nature that MOVES us to commit sin.

    In heaven we can have "nothing" remaining of the above list that is not solved by the Gospel.

    Christ NEEDED no Gospel to save HIM. He had no problems at all with the list above.

    But we need a Savior for ALL 3 problems - not just one or two of them.

    I think that is the main point I have been trying to get across.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  11. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: When we leave this flesh, naturally all propensities of the flesh will cease as well. That does not mean that all possibility of contrary choice is impossible I heaven. If that is so, you have just eliminated love.

    As for this ‘sinful nature’ you speak of, I cannot find a reference to it in Scripture. Can you point to a verse that states such a sinful nature exists and that explains to us the import of this nature and where it comes from or how it is generated? Thanks.
     
  12. BobRyan

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    Romans 3 is the place where we see the sinful nature described in detail. The place where we see that "no not one" is excluded from it.

    I agree that in heaven the sinful nature "the bent to do evil that is In our nature" is left. The saints are glorified taking on the NEW Flesh of the immortal heavenly eternal body. For if there is an earthly body there is also most assuredly a heavenly on 1Cor 15 and 2Cor 5 make that clear.

    I also agree that WITHOUT this inner bent TOWARD sin - the saints in heaven would STILL have the free will option of CHOOSING sin as did Lucifer, 1/3 of all angels, Adam and Eve. But they WILL NOT choose it - because the sin experiment of 6000 years on earth will have proven the utter failure of sin. The "Job experiment" at the 6000 year level will have fully "proven" God's case against sin and rebellion.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  13. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: Ro 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
    11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
    12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

    What I see here is a clear declaration of the universal ensnarement of sin. What I do not see is any reference to a sin nature or original sin. Sin is universal, but that in no way implies it is imputed to us or that it occurs apart from the formation of a selfish intent without force or coercion. The mere fact of it being blameworthy and ourselves as sinners the rightful recipients of punishment testifies to the clear understanding that sin is not a contagion, but a willful intent formed by the will itself in a setting of freedom as opposed to coercion. The whole notion of morality is destroyed when we make sin, or love for that matter, out to be the unavoidable necessitated product of coercion.
     
  14. BobRyan

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    So if you have chosen Christ as your Savior -- IF you have the good fruit of the good tree as Christ says regarding the born-again new-creation in Matt 7 THEN is it true of YOU that "you do not do good"??

    When Paul says in 2Cor 5 we shall be called in before the judgment seat of Christ to give an account for the deeds done in the body "whether they be good OR evil" according to Romans 3 what are they? Good or evil?

    So then "By their fruits you shall know them" - are the fruits good or "evil"? Is the tree good or evil - and the fruit good or evil?

    You see the problem???

    If you claim that Rom 3 is describing you as a Christian then you are claiming "Evil fruit". Since Rom 3 says "NO ONE is exempt" not even Christians - then it MUST be describing you and me. It can not be any other way.

    And the only way for BOTH the Matt 7 point to be true AND the Roman 3 point to be true of the SAME person at the SAME point in time is for Rom 3 to be describing the "sinful nature" and Matt 7 to be describing the resulting outward "fruit" of the new creation vs someone that is not born-again.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  15. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: No


    HP: Whatever they are is how they will be judged. If they have been repented of and forsaken and the blood applied, you will have an advocate.



    HP: That depends on what fruits are evident.



    HP: Yes, I believe I do. You are determined to build a case for your presupposition of imputed guilt that is not stated or implied and cannot be built from Scripture period.



    HP: Paul is expressing truth. He is not ‘describing' a Christian, but rather he is explaining to us the grounds of salvation. It is not written to ‘just the saved’ or ‘just the unsaved’ It is written to those that have accepted Christ that their acceptance is not because their ancestry was Jewish, and gives hope to the Gentile that salvation is clearly now preached to them. Paul is telling all that salvation is not grounded in works, for if it was none could be saved including the Jew, for all have sinned. He is telling the listener that salvation is by faith being made possible by grace, and is for both Jew and Gentile, no respect being given upon the factor of mere race or good that any have done. None have a right to boast in themselves or their actions, for all have sinned. God is the one God of both Jew and Gentile.

    Just the same, Paul is warning both Jew and Gentile that God has not set aside His law or made void the law by making faith a condition of salvation. Rather, the moral law is established for all to abide by that enter into a walk by faith.

    How am I claiming "evil fruit?” Scripture nowhere states that fruit is not a way to examine ourselves to see if we are of the faith, it is just stating that our works are not the grounds of salvation. Do you understand the distinction between a condition of salvation or subsequent fruit of salvation with the grounds of salvation? That is Paul’s point. Works, or proper actions, are not the grounds of salvation Bob, although none will be saved apart from them either. Our works are always thought of in the sense of not without which, NOT that for the sake of.



    HP: Matt 7 is warning us that the fruits are indeed a way to judge not only our own lives but the lives of others. “By their fruits ye shall know them.” The world abounds with false professors and false prophets, and we are to be discerning by carefully examining the fruit of their lives to be able to ferret out those that have God’s interests and their fellow mans interest at heart and those that are selfish deceivers. "Not everyone that says Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom.” We must be doers of the Word and not hearers only.

    Your constant drumbeat trying to make these passages support the notion of a sinful nature or original sin is sounding out a hollow drumbeat. There is no support for such a idea foreign to God’s Word that you have set out to somehow establish.
     
    #15 Heavenly Pilgrim, Oct 8, 2006
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  16. Claudia_T

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    Jesus came with our sinful flesh


    Rom:8:3: For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh

    4: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
    5: For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
    6: For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
    7: Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
    8: So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
     
  17. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: I see this verse not as stating or claiming that sin lies in the flesh itself, but rather using the term ‘sinful flesh’ to depict the lost race of humanity as a whole.

    If we take it that the flesh spoken of was indeed sinful in and of itself, and we hold to the notion of imputed guilt, this verse would establish the fact that He was born with like sinful flesh as well, would it not?

    He condemned sin in the flesh, not by coming in a state in which He could not have sinned, but rather in the state men are born into with the distinct ability to sin, yet He did not sin. This proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that a man can indeed refuse to sin if he wills. It establishes the fact that sin is not some impossible force or coercion upon man, but everyman is able, if they were but willing, at first light of moral agency, to refuse selfishness and do righteously. This also establishes the justice of God in punishing the sinner does it not?
     
  18. LeBuick

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    Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
    15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
    16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
    17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
    18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
    19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
    20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
    22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
    23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
    24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
    25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
     
  19. BobRyan

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    Paul has given us a good definition of the sinful nature in Rom 3 – showing that in that regard the sinful nature has nothing good in it – it is “full of sin” it is our sinful inclination to rebel against God’s Word.




    By contrast it is observed that "by the works of the LAW CHRIST WAS justified even in His human sinless flesh".

    By contrast – only depravity “Dwells in us” by nature. We are “by nature the children of wrath” Eph 2:3-6.

    And as Paul points out in Rom 7 – IN him is only depravity apart from the New Creation. (Good point LeBuick)

    Rom 7
    17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
    18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
    19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
    20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.


    In the text above however we do have a good argument for Christ also having a “sinful” nature. But notice that the text says “in the likeness of our sinful flesh”. When Paul uses that term – he shows in several cases that he does not mean to imply an exact equivalence.

    So while an argument could be made that “Sinful flesh” is to include the idea of sinful nature seen in Rom 3 – and that Rom 8 is making an exact equivalence claiming that Christ’s nature was totally depraved and “sinFUL” just as ours is – the example from Eph 4 above shows that this is not likely. For it is agreed that we are not in fact “God”. In the Likeness of God – does not make us anything like God in terms of exact equivalence. Christ took upon Himself our fallen – weakened human nature as opposed to the unfallen – perfect – flawless human nature of Adam. But that is as far as it went.
     
    #19 BobRyan, Oct 8, 2006
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  20. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: If Christ took upon Himself ‘our fallen weakened nature’ and that nature is sinful according to you, His nature must have been sinful as well according to you, correct?
     

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