Featured The danger of teetotalism

I don't understand what you're trying to say here. Apologies, I might be having a dense day.

FTR, I practice a personal convictional stance in which I completely abstain from all alcoholic beverages (can't do much about medicines) as part of my calling to be a pastor. However, I do not hold others (and other pastors) to my personal conviction. While the Bible is clear that drunkenness is sin, it is reasonable to note it permits alcohol consumption...even prescribes it in several places. That prescription is not absolute, but personal.

 

Yes I take medicine. No I don't take coumadin [warfarin]. It is a very dangerous medicine and I doubt most old folks take it. Aspirin is a blood thinner and cheaper than beer, and you can't get drunk on aspirin.

I have been going to the same cardiologist for 17+ years and he has yet to recommend that I drink any alcoholic beverage. So! he is a sorry doctor? I see him next week, God willing. If I think about it I will ask him about the pint a day!

And I am out of here!

 

I posted this in the other thread and it needs to be viewed here apparently as well: This is for those who wish to see the facts from the other side of the coin and what many doctors and colleges are saying on the issue of moderate daily drinking.

From the Mayo Clinic, a very reputable health organization (one of many) ALL emphasis added to quoted texts are mine.

It is of note, this does not encourage drinking but states there is a possibility it might help IF your older with heart issues, not middle aged and younger, in which case you may sustain more harm than good.. however one thing is certain.. they are certain!

And from Weill Cornwell Medical College, from their article: "Health Benefits of Alcohol Depend on Drinking in Moderation"

Note both are not opposed to drinking but these are medical experts and know the stats in relation not just to numbers but PEOPLE.

This part is just interesting as I didn't know this, so this is just a side bar:
The below doesn't take into account alcohol content only amount / calories

And lastly, for those who want a Medical perspective from accredited Doctors here is one to read from CHARLES S. LIEBER, MD
Alcohol Research and Treatment Center,
Section of Liver Disease and Nutrition,
Bronx VA Medical Center and Mount Sinai
School of Medicine, New York

Here is the first part:

and another portion: Here he makes a very unique observation regarding amount a person is to drink daily in connection to the fact the very person drinking so often can develop dependency on the substance - ie addicted to the substance:

NOTE however his last comments:

UNDERSTAND, I'm not opposed to people who drink, however the medical facts and many Medical physicians and Colleges, seem to not agree that in general moderate drinking is good for your health. Yet if you are ALREADY a moderate drinker and due to your drinking history do not seem prone to dependency, there is no reason to tell them to stop. However take note here his statement as well:

This is a doctor speaking from a medical standpoint and not a Christian one. Drinking is not a sin but take care in compelling others to take up something God has not deemed necessary to bring them into.

 

Did I say it was to negate it? No. You miss understanding of my posting entirely.

My point is that alcohol is not good for most people regarding health and dependency(of which no man can predict), and that one should not try to get others to become moderate drinkers or drinkers at all when they never were to begin with. I stating this regarding the medical aspect only - In fact, the main thrust of what I gave is that the alcoholic benefits are sketchy at best and still not for the many.

That is my point, not against Alcohol as a sin, but that one should not do it just cause others want to or that there might be some benefit when the other side of that coin is something even the medical community take great caution with. Know the risks before you entertain the action. You gave benefits, nothing wrong with that.. I gave the other side of the coin.

Nope.. there is a lot there and while some does deal with abuse, the majority is on moderate and light drinking. It is a report that proves the 'positive' reports are not as positive as they claim and breaks it down to prove it. It even gives case studies were the people who were moderate drinkers had NO effect positively. The whole thing is 5 pages long and in a bit smaller script than this.

 

Did you note that he doesn't quote any research, nor does he refer back to any.

What I gave are government Health organizations and Medical Colleges,and researcher who is well know and respected in his field of alcohol study (since he was one of the original arguers for it).
In fact, his very report, speaks to the point of what your quote is reaching toward. Taking a study and misapplying the research, not having all the relevant data. He speaks of the very thing in the article I gave.In fact much of what he gives to help increase is proven false in many reports (like the one I gave).

Is it odd that he states.. it's great, and doctors in our health organizations state otherwise, and our other Medical Colleges as well. I know there are reports out there with positives, but the 'fact' is they, by the medical community at large, are sketchy and problematic. The problem here brother is even when the facts are placed in front of you, you still wont listen or even pause to double check yourself.

 

Yes, I see his cited works.. did you know that many of his citations are some of my sites.. he is misapplying the states to support his data. Like under the Health tab.. where he cites different reports.. it is the very report I gave that is debunking the statements he is making

Did you also notice this at the botton of his pages.

That says a lot

 

LOL>... you never read a a single thing I gave did you? You will not that this to has been debunked by:
Alcohol Research and Treatment Center,
Section of Liver Disease and Nutrition,
Bronx VA Medical Center and Mount Sinai
School of Medicine, New York

This is one of the premier Research centers for Alcohol and other medical issues related to and from it.
Here, since you wont take the time to actually read what is given you but choose to willfully ignore medical data presented that refutes your claim from the larger collective medical community.

The problem,as you can see, is that the tests are not consistent and all over the board. Thus any group can claim just about whatever they want, if they ignore the other studies which disprove them, or shows a different stat than what they want to show

 

Look Luke, you are missing my point so completely your facing the wrong direction.

My point is that the medical community is so inconsistent in what they understand regarding alcohol that they as a unit will not endorse moderate drinking as a viable health alternative.

It is that simple. Thus I can show you LARGE amounts of data on the subject and you can show me yours and it just proves my point more and more with every post.

THIS IS WHAT I'M SAYING

So stop trying to make it as though drinking moderately is good for everyone when the facts are, it isn't regarding everyone, just some - and even then you must be careful due to other facts such as dependency of which the person does not seek but becomes so without trying due to other factors.

And since I have COMPLETELY derailed your thread, I'm sorry. Take it back to what you were saying in the OP

 

It seems to me the risks of moderate drinking ... whatever that means ... outweigh the benefits:

 

It seems the response to Luke's post is we have already been over this. It seems this is only the second time. It is his right to post whatever he pleases. Besides that, how many of you complain about the 24 hour a day, non stop threads on Calvinism vs free will? That must be into the thousands of threads by now.

 

Good point. I would hate to see this OP take its place, as at least we are citing scripture when talking about Calvanism, instead of science.

 

The danger of teetotalism

Isn't there another thread about this currently running? It seems Luke2427 just wants an argument for its own sake.

...And condemning those who abstain is neither fair nor graceful.

 

Luke seems very Pharisaical about the topic. I believe he really does not want to acknowledge there is a down side to moderate drinking that, to me, far outweighs any benefits.

 

There are not many posters on this board I find myself in agreement with as much as your posts across the board, theologically and politically. The way you word things comes across as very Christ-like, and even points out to me that some of my posts are not as gracious as yours. Sometimes reading your posts speak to me that this is not what the Lord would have said in response to a point of disagreement. In fact, I just deleted a response that was not so kind in a Calvinsim-free will thread.

The two reasons I cited earlier in this thread for me not drinking were my pattern of drinking and a witness to others. I agree with you comment in this way. I do not feel I have a right to condemn others for moderate drinking because I cannot. One is hard pressed to make a case for abstinence in Scripture. You are correct in the fact that neither side has no right to condemn the other.

My heart wants to reach a point where posts are made by stating positions backed up by Scripture without the words like heresey, pathetic, sad, false doctrine, etc.... In fact, the trap I find myself falling into, especially in the Calvin threads, is getting angered by the use of these words between posters. Once getting involved, I find myself doing the same thing in the back and forth exchange, doing the exact thing that angers me in the first place. Sometimes, as in the Calvin threads, I find myself getting into it by those using those words that are on the same side of election that I am.

That vicious cycle almost reminds me of Paul talking in Romans 7 and 8. Anyway, just wanted to say I appreciate the spirit and content of your posts.