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Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Salty, Mar 14, 2009.
Here is my annual poll
Friday. The Jewish day measured sunset to sunset. The Jews counted any part of a day, as a day. Jesus was buried for "3 days".
Friday (3 pm to sunset) (1 day), Friday sunset to Saturday sunset (1 day), Saturday sunset to Sunday morning (1 day): 3 days total.
peace to youraying:
Yeah, Friday...what was said above and why reverse thousands of years of accepted teaching?
hehe...should be an interesting convo
I remember hearing a conversation on radio a few years back about this. One person suggested that there was a "double sabbath" that year, with both Friday and Saturday being sabbaths because of the Passover. The suggestion was that Jesus was crucified and buried on Thursday (to miss the two sabbaths), and was in the tomb Thursday evening through Sunday morning. However, the math concerning "three days" does not work!
In my opinion, Jesus was crucified Friday AM, died and was buried Friday afternoon, and was raised to life on Sunday AM. I also believe that the last part (the Resurrection) is the only important "dated" part of the story, because it proves the completion of what Jesus came to do.
Sorry My Bad! Checked Wed, But Wanted Friday!!!
On the 14th day of the first month, "between the [two] evenings" (Ex. 12:6; Lev. 23:5, Num. 9:1-5 - YLT, DBY, REB, LIT). :thumbsup:
Note that the KJV Translators notes agree with this reading in the Hebrew, as they denote this "in...: Heb. between the two evenings" (Ex. 12:6 - KJ Translator's notes)
IF Jesus died on Friday and rose on Sunday morning, can anyone explain where you get three days and three nights during that time? He supposedly died and was put in the tomb on Friday afternoon and rose on Sunday morning. That is actually less than two full days and only TWO nights. Was time figured differently then or just in that country?
That's my thought too. If he died on Friday and rose on Sunday, that's not three days...
Thursday is the only logical day.
I ain't got a dog in the fight here but I did find a pretty interesting link:
Of course this rests on the belief that Jesus was crucified in 33 AD/CE.
(the CE is for kicks...lol...such a trouble maker)
The days were figured differently. (I'm not stating He died on friday but simply answering your question about if they figured time differently)
Thursday would be from the time period of Wednesday evening till Thursday evening to the Jews as they maintained the Genesis principle of "and the evening and the morning were one day". For the Jews the day started with the night and went from evening until morning (about 12 hours), and then from morning until evening (about 12 hours). This might seem somewhat confusing to us but it really isn't. Our day does not start at morning, but it starts at midnight and ends at midnight (24 hours). The Jewish day stills starts and ends at sunset, it is just six hours earlier then our day; therefore their Sabbath starts at six o'clock on Friday evening and ends at six o'clock on our Saturday evening. Thus for the Jews, the first day of the week starts on Saturday evening, not Sunday morning.
Not necessarily, though they did at 'times'. This is not to dispute what you (per-say)said but that I'm just stating it was not what was always done in this manner.
However, with the specifics of Christs detailed prophetic resurrection we find that the type of day He was refering to was a full 24 hour period because He states that He will be in the tomb for 3 days and 3 nights.
Thursday?? Right on!!
Your words here are "short and sweet," unlike my own somewhat wordy annual :rolleyes" exposition and exegesis. (You'd think that "after the third day" of the explanation, including by Yours truly, among several others, everyone would finally actually get it.) :smilewinkgrin:
A Wednesday crucifixion is "too soon" (Lk. 24:21; Mt. 27:62-64) and a Friday crucifixion is "too late", (Mt. 12:39-40; 27:53; Mk. 8:31) as our Lord was already risen "while it was yet dark," early on the first day of the week. (Mt. 28:1-4. Jn. 20:1, etc.) Wanna' guess what day is effectively left, then?? Hint! Palatka51 has perfectly nailed it, above!
[Incidentally, one has to misread (or either deliberately or innocently misuse - the actual intention really makes no difference, here) Mt. 12:39-40 to find any reference about how long the body of the Lord Jesus would be "in the grave/tomb" or any supposed "72 hour period of time" for neither of these phrases is even hinted at, in this passage in Matthew.]
IMNSHO, Only Thursday, as we reckon time, can 'fit' all the various Biblical criteria, for the crucifixion, and the Passover, including the requirement that the Passover lamb be killed, in the Biblical phrase, "between the evenings" which phrase was actually meaningless, and seemingly just an unusual, slightly quirky wording of the Hebrew language, until our Lord actually partook of the Passover lamb, and then actually became our Passover Lamb on the same 14 Nisan, thus fulfilling the Biblical picture, perfectly.
Incidentally, although I did not mention it here, either a Wednesday crucifixion or a Friday crucifixion day would have required the Lord Jesus to "break the Sabbath" not during the time his body lie in the tomb, but the previous weekly Sabbath, for it would have required the Lord to travel further than "the Sabbath Day's Journey" one was permitted to travel on the Sabbath Day, to or from the residence of Mary, Martha, and Lazarus at Bethany. Take the time to actually "do the math" for the 10th day and 14th day of the first month, here. (Ex.12:2-6 YLT, DBY, KJT notes)
I am a Wednesday believer. That keys on several things that I believe:
The last supper was not the Passover meal, but the Passover preparation meal. This comes straight from the OT. It was the feast where they consumed all of the yeast in the house prior to the Passover. There was no lamb at the last supper, only bread and wine. Of course as preparation meal both the bread and the wine could have contained leaven. Jesus did not eat a Passover lamb at this supper. This feast of preparation was still part of the Passover week and was considered and referred to as part of the Passover, but was not the meal with the lamb.
Christ was crucified on Wednesday and the next day, Thursday, was the actual Passover Day. During the day on Wednesday the Passover lambs that had been set aside a week before were killed and prepared for the actual Passover feasts which took place after sundown that night. Remember, sundown was the start of a new day. This means that as Jesus hung on the cross, at that very moment, Passover lambs were being slain throughout Jerusalem. I just think that’s cool. Jesus did not eat a Passover lamb that year, he was the Passover lamb.
At sundown Wednesday, it became Thursday, and that Thursday was a high Sabbath because of the Passover. So He had to be placed in the grave before dark.
Jesus stayed in the tomb all day Thursday, Friday, and Saturday, 3 days and 3 nights.
At nightfall on Saturday, as soon as it became Sunday, Jesus arose. That’s why the soldiers were already gone when the women came to the tomb that Sunday morning, Jesus had already been up for a while.
Anyway, that is what I believe. Thursday does not work for me because that is still only 3 nights and 2 days. Yea I know, parts of days could count as days. You could also say that the passage about 3 days and 3 nights and Jonah referred to the fact that both Jonah and Jesus were dead not necessarily that they were dead for the same period of time.
I don’t see it necessarily contradicting scripture to believe any of these and it would not break fellowship for me, but I believe Wednesday.
Very interesting Ed, I appreciate your study here, especially the part about the travel.
You referenced Luke 24:21 as making a Wed Crucifixion to soon. It takes place on Sunday and says, “to day is the third day since these things were done.” But using the Jewish method of counting days saying there have been 3 days since this happened could refer to 3 days between now and then, Thurs, Fri, Sat. Your reference of Matt 27 also seems to support this saying, “after 3 days” that would be Thurs, Fri, and Saturday.
If Jesus was crucified on Wednesday, then Wednesday was the preparation day, not the Passover, that makes it Wednesday the 13th and so the 10th was on Sunday. That was the day Jesus was set aside (like the lambs) and came from Bethany. So there was no travel restriction on that day.
Now let me be clear here because my timeline rests on this, I do not believe the last supper was the Passover meal, but the Preparation feast that was still a part of the Passover celebration. Let me ask you this, what time of day was it when they at the last supper? If it was after dark, which I believe it was, then later that same night Jesus was tried and the next day crucified. If the last supper was consumed after dark, and if it was in fact the Passover, then Jesus would have been crucified on the Passover, on a Sabbath day. This was forbidden and even though the Romans might not have cared no Jew would have been able to touch Jesus’ body or place it in the tomb until after nightfall. That seems to contradict scripture to me.
Read these references to the preparation:
Matt 27:62 – calls the day Jesus died, “the day of preparation”
Mark 15:42 – calls the day Jesus died, “the preparation”
Luke 23:54 – calls the day Jesus died, “the preparation”
John 19:14 – calls the day Jesus died, “the preparation of the Passover”
John 19:31 – calls the day Jesus died, “the preparation”
John 19:42 – calls the day Jesus died, “the Jew’s Preparation day.”
Oh and I agree with your comments on Matt 12.
Like with many theological arguments if you seek to challenge one piece of tradition you find that you change others as well.
I believe that Jesus died on Wednesday and of course that challenges the tradition of Friday. But in order for my theory to hold up I also have to challenge the idea that the last supper was a Passover meal. Because all scripture hangs together we must look at it together, as a complete work, not as isolated verses. And we must look at it in the context and tradition of the time it was written as well (days starting at sundown).
Thanks for the discussion, I love this stuff.