The Dead In Christ Shall Rise First – 1 Thessalonians 4:16

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Dan Edwin, Sep 10, 2008.

  1. Dan Edwin

    Dan Edwin
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    THE DEAD IN CHRIST SHALL RISE FIRST – 1 THESSALONIANS 4:16

    For the Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God. And the “dead” in Christ shall rise first (1 Thessalonians 4:16).

    This Koine Greek word translated as “dead” can mean “dead” (as a corpse), or it can mean “spiritually dead” (separated from God because of sin). The next verse shows both connotations of this Greek word translated to mean “dead”. "Follow Me, and let the dead bury their own dead" (Matthew 8:22). The deceased cannot bury the deceased, but those who are “spiritually dead” in trespasses and sin can bury the deceased. This example is used to help us see the word “dead”, as in the “dead in Christ” shall rise first, refers to those who are spiritually dead in trespasses and sins, not “deceased”.

    And the dead in Christ shall rise first (1 Thessalonians 4:16b). Who are the “dead in Christ” that rise first? Are they believers that died (deceased) or are they believers that are spiritually dead in trespasses and sins by not being reconciled to God? The following verses help us to see who they are.

    Whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die (John 11:26a). Those who live and believe in Christ never die (“decease”), because: It is appointed for men to die once (Hebrews 9:27a). But when believers are joined together with the Spirit of Christ, we are joined together with Him into His death, and have “died” with Christ. You died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God (Colossians 3:3). We never die, because Christ, Who is alive forevermore (Revelations 1:18), is the life within us (Galatians 2:20). Born again believers that depart from this world do not “die”, we “fall asleep”. If the “dead in Christ” were born again believers that deceased, and if they arose from the dead, they would have to die again which is contrary to scripture, for it is appointed unto man to die one time. This is why the “dead in Christ” are those who have the Spirit of Christ within, but are “spiritually dead” in trespasses (as prodigals) because of pursuing worldly lusts, rather than repenting to be reconciled to God and born again as a child of God.

    God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:14b),……...
    Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17a). God will bring those who “sleep in Jesus” with Him,…….and we will be caught-up together with “them” (who sleep in Jesus) in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

    But the “dead in Christ” shall rise first;……believers in Jesus Christ that are spiritually dead in trespasses and sins (“dead in Christ”) repent and confess their trespasses to be made “alive in Christ” and raised up together when forgiven, ………..before we who are “alive in Christ” and remain are caught up together with them (who “sleep in Jesus”) in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

    Believers are “in Christ” by the Spirit of the Son of God within (1 John 5:10-13). But even though we are “in Christ” we can become spiritually “dead”, separated from God the Father as prodigals by pursuing the lusts and ways of the world. Believers that are “dead in Christ” need to repent and confess their trespasses to be made alive in Christ by being reconciled to God when forgiven us of all trespasses.

    Unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God (John 3:5b). How can we know we are born of the Spirit to enter the Kingdom of God? If we know that He is righteous, we know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him (1 John 2:29). Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God. In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother (1 John 3:10). We are not saved by works, but our works of righteousness are a testimony that we are born of the Spirit as Christ lives in and through us.

    Then the King will say to those on His right hand (the righteous), 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me' (Matthew 25:34-36).

    "The righteous will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?' And the King will answer and say to them, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.' (Matthew 25:37-40)

    Let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous (1 John 3:7).

    Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God (1 Corinthians 6:9-10). In our world today, pornography, drugs, and gambling are additional sins of the flesh we need to turn from.

    As many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God (John 1:12-13). Those who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ have power (by the Spirit within) to be born again and saved as a child of God. "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household." (Acts 16:31). But just because we believe in Christ, may not mean we have been forgiven of all trespasses to be reconciled to God and saved. “Shall be saved”, may not mean, “have been saved”.

    We believe in Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins, repent and are baptized with water in the name of Jesus Christ as a testimony of our faith to have past sins forgiven by the grace of God (Acts 2:38, Matthew 28:19-20). We repent and confess our sins to be made alive together with Christ and saved by being reconciled to God when forgiven of all trespasses. We should forgive others of their trespasses against us, and try to have others forgive us of our trespasses against them. We need to repent of sins of the flesh (including hate and covetousness) to be forgiven of all trespasses and made “alive” in Christ by being reconciled to God before we can enter the Kingdom of God. It is harder for a rich man in bondage to the sin of covetousness to enter the Kingdom of God, than for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle. We want heaven, but the wealthy often love money more than the Lord or their neighbor in need.

    Behold, I speak a mystery to you; we shall not all fall asleep, but we shall all be changed; in a moment, in a glance of an eye, at the last trumpet. For a trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall all be changed (1 Corinthians 15:51-52). Believers, spiritually dead in trespasses and sins, repent and confess their sins to be reconciled to God when forgiven of all trespasses. Because God the Father (eternal life) and God the Son are One, we have eternal life by the Spirit of God the Son within us.

    We are joined together with the Spirit of Christ and raised up together: from corruption to incorruption, from weakness to power, and from dishonor to glory as we are made in the image of Jesus Christ to have our mortal body “changed” in the “blink” of an eye to put on immortality (perfection), when sanctified completely by the Holy Spirit of God our Father to be a “son” or “daughter” of God and heir of the Kingdom of God, seated at the right hand to go out no more.

    Until we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ (Ephesians 4:13). Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins (James 5:19-20).

    Trust the Lord, and God bless.
     
  2. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    Rather than going through all this, we could just look at the passage that tells us who these "dead in Christ" are:

    1 Thessalonians 4:13-14 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.

    The "dead in Christ" are those who have "fallen asleep in Jesus." They are contrasted with we who are alive and remain.

    Therefore, the dead in Christ are physically dead believers.
     
  3. Brother Bob

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    Yea, don't think the spiritual dead are going to meet the Lord in the air.

    BBob,
     
  4. just-want-peace

    just-want-peace
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    Is it not amazing how sensible the Word is if we just read it, and quit trying to make it say something that ain't there???

    Some try to take us back to the time when only the clergy were "smart enough" to read and understand His word.

    While there may be deeper meanings that study will uncover, the plain sense of the Word will not be negated by these deeper meanings but reinforced.

    Complications are mans folly, not God's!
     
  5. Dan Edwin

    Dan Edwin
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    Pastor Larry, you say:
    (1) The "dead in Christ" are those who have "fallen asleep in Jesus."

    It is appointed for men to die once, (Hebrews 9:27a).
    .........our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death.........(2 Timothy 1:10).

    If Jesus Christ abolished death, then how can a saved believer be "dead" again?

    ....that (Jesus), by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone (Hebrews 2:9)

    Jesus abolished death when He "tasted" death for everyone.

    ......it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; (Galatians 2:20a).

    Christ (Who is alive forevermore) becomes the life in us when we are born again.

    .......behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen............(Revelation 1:18).

    Prodigal believers are "dead" until they repent to be reconciled to God and alive.

    ....my son was dead and is alive again;........(Luke 15:24).

    ........He who does not love his brother abides in death (1 John 3:14).


    Brother Bob, you say:
    (2) Yea, don't think the spiritual dead are going to meet the Lord in the air.

    That's right!, and that's the reason why believers that are spiritually dead ("dead" in Christ) need to repent and be reconciled to God to be made alive in Christ and saved. Just because we believe Christ is the way to the Father does not mean we have repented (turned from) and confessed our sins to become reconciled to God and made alive in Christ (saved).


    just-want-peace, you say:
    (3) Is it not amazing how sensible the Word is if we just read it.

    And you're right too! If it is appointed for men to die once; then How can believers that are fallen alseep in Jesus be "dead" if they were raised up together with Christ from being dead in trespasses and sins when they were born again and saved. If Christ (Who is alive forevermore) is the life in and through born again believers, then how are they to die again. Born again/saved believers "fall asleep", they do not become "dead" in Christ again.

    We are saved (born again) by the grace of God for our faith (not by any works of the Law), but just because we believe that and ask to be saved does not mean God has forgiven us of all trespasses. We need to live by faith, repent and confess our sins to forgiven of all trespasses to be made alive together with Christ (saved); and then go on to perfection when sanctified completely when annointed by the Holy Spirit of God our Father to become a "son" or "daughter" of God and heir of the Kingdom of God, to go out no more.

    AND ...........IT SHALL COME TO PASS........... THAT WHOEVER CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD SHALL BE SAVED' (Acts 2:21).
     
  6. Pastor Larry

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    The passage is not suggesting that believers die more than once. That verse (Heb 9:27) is a reference to physical death, just as 1 Thess 4 is. There is only one physical death.

    That is a different kind of death (spiritual). But a prodigal believer (whatever that is) isn't dead spiritually.
     
  7. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    I don't see this thread so far to be much about death and resurrection. I side with Pastor Larry. The other day I said on another thread there are no dead Christians.

    To me this thread seems to bring a strange Gospel - Dan Edwin's - one that will save you "FOR your faith", not the Gospel that saves by grace through faith. The difference is great.
     
  8. Dan Edwin

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    Quote:
    Prodigal believers are "dead" until they repent to be reconciled to God and alive.

    Pastor Larry says:
    That is a different kind of death (spiritual). But a prodigal believer (whatever that is) isn't dead spiritually.

    The parable of the prodigal son seen in Luke 15:11-32 is about a son that left home and followed a riotous, reckless, wasteful lifestyle, until he came to his senses and returned to his father. When he returned home, his father said "my son was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found" (Luke 15:24).

    This shows the prodigal son WAS SPIRITUALLY DEAD in being separated from his father and lost in the world, just as lost sinners are until they believe, repent, and confess their sins until they are forgiven of all trespasses when they are born again and saved by being made alive together with the Spirit of Christ.



    Gerhard Ebersoehn says:
    I don't see this thread so far to be much about death and resurrection. I side with Pastor Larry. The other day I said on another thread there are no dead Christians.

    Here are two examples of Christians that were physically alive but spiritually dead.

    "And to the angel of the church in Sardis write, "I know your works, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead. (Revelation 3:1)

    But she who lives in pleasure is dead while she lives. (1 Timothy 5:6)

    ==========

    This is all about death and resurrection, because:
    Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy......
    (God) has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead
    , (1 Peter 1:3)

    We are begotten again (born again) through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

    =========

    Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life (John 11:25a).
    Whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. (John 11:26a)

    Born again believers are raised up together in the resurrection with Christ, and shall never die because Christ (Who is alive forevermore) is the life within us.

    =========

    Jesus Christ is the resurrection, the last Adam, a life giving spirit that we are made alive and raised up together with (and shall never die), when God forgives us of all trespasses.

    And so it is written, "THE FIRST MAN ADAM BECAME A LIVING BEING."
    The last Adam (Jesus Christ) became a life-giving spirit. (1 Corinthians 15:45)

    When we were dead in trespasses, (God) made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, (Ephesians 2:5-6)

    ===========

    The following prophecy on the resurrection by Jesus Christ was given during the age of the Mosaic Law and began being fulfilled in the age of grace after He was raised from the dead.

    In the resurrection (Matthew 22:30a);

    When they rise from the dead, (Mark 12:25a);

    Those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, (Luke 20:35a),...........
    nor can they die anymore, (Luke 20:36a)

    ===============

    Whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. (John 11:26a)

    Lost sinners that are made alive (born again/saved) in Christ and continue to believe, ........shall never die.............
    He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, (Colossians 2:13b)

    We are made alive together with the Spirit when God forives us of all trespasses.

    ===========

    For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.
    And the dead in Christ will rise first. (1 Thessalonians 4:16)

    Lost sinners that believe in Jesus Christ are spiritually "dead in Christ" until they repent and confess their trespasses to be saved by being made alive in the resurrection together with the Spirit of Christ when forgiven of all trespasses.

    When saved believers depart from this world, they do not "die" they "fall asleep". We do not "die", because we already died with Christ when we were made alive together with His Spirit and saved. Christ died for us and gave up His Spirit so when we are joined together with His Spirit, we are joined together with Him into His death and raised to life (born again). The resurrection of the body (redemption of the body) follows when we put on perfection, are sanctified completely by the Holy Spirit of God our Father.


    Trust the Lord, and God bless.
     
  9. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    You are mixing the metaphors of death used in the Bible. It is clear from 1 Thess 4 that the death there is physical death.
     
  10. Dan Edwin

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    And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?" (John 11:26)

    .........our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, (2 Timothy 1:10)

    Born again believers have been raised from the dead together with Christ and can not die again, because Christ Who is alive forevermore is the life within us.

    It says, we are caught up together in the clouds with them who have fallen asleep in Jesus (not died in Jesus) to meet the Lord in the air.

    It is appointed unto man to die one time, but Jesus Christ gave up His Spirit when He tasted death for every man. We died with Him when we were saved by being quickened together with His Spirit.

    For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. (Colossians 3:3)

    Jesus Christ delivered us from so great a death, and does deliver us;...........(2 Corinthians 1:10a)

    We believe what the Bible says. If we are wrong, use scripture to show us our error, rather than make statements that we are wrong just because you got a hold of that understanding. Believe the Bible; let go of a "dead" theology and live.

    Take care, and God bless
     
  11. Amy.G

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    We do not go to sleep when our body stops breathing and our soul leaves it. The body without the soul is dead. The body rots in the ground because it is corruptible.
     
  12. Pastor Larry

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  13. DHK

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    In the Bible, Death = Separation--ALL the time.
    In the verse above:
    "And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never be separated from Me.
    Do you believe this?
    ...our Saviour Jesus Christ, who has abolished (eternal) separation and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.
    --The context is immortality, and the eternal state or eternal life, as contrasted to eternal death or eternal separation from God. That was abolished at the cross for them that believe.
    Born again believers have been raised from the dead together with Christ, and cannot be separated from God again...
    It says, we are caught up together in the clouds with them who are fallen asleep in Jesus (have physically died: 1Cor.11:30; James 2:26)--the spirit is separated from the body
    The we is our bodies. It is speaking of the rapture. It is speaking of the rapture. In some way, not explicitly explained to man God will unite our spirits with out bodies and we will be with the Lord forever more.
    It is appointed unto man once to live on this earth, and then his spirit will be separated from his body (James 2:26)
    But Jesus gave up His Spirit when his body separated from His spirit (a taste of death) for every man--a taste for God cannot die.
    "We died with him" These are your words, not the Bible's.
    More accurately the KJV says "for ye are dead," meaning that now you are separated from the world and sin, and separated unto Christ, wherin your life ought to be hid.
    He delivered us from being separated from God for all eternity.
    Understand what death is, and then you will understand what the Bible has to say about it. As Pastor Larry says, don't mix metaphors. Don't take Scripture out of context. Learn to rightly divide the Word of Truth.
    It is apparent that you are not believing what the Bible says regarding this topic.
     
  14. DHK

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    You said: "We believe what the Bible says."

    Could you please clarify who the "we" is?
    Thanx.
     
  15. Dan Edwin

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    Amy G. says:
    We do not go to sleep when our body stops breathing and our soul leaves it. The body without the soul is dead. The body rots in the ground because it is corruptible.

    I perceive: when those who are born of the Spirit are "released" from our earthen tabernacle (body), we "sleep in Jesus" or "pass away". We do not "die" or are not "dead", but are releaed from earth to live with God in a spiritual realm.

    Just as Jesus said, He is with you and shall be in you, I believe He was speaking of Himself as a spirit when He returned at Pentecost as the Holy Ghost, after He "tasted" death for us to redeem us from the curse of the Mosaic Law.

    The last Adam (Jesus Christ) became a life-giving spirit. (1 Corinthians 15:45b).

    We understand the Spirit of the last Adam (Jesus Christ) is the Holy Ghost because: Jesus Christ is holy, sanctifed by the Holy Spirit of God, and is a "Ghost" in being the image ("ghost") of the invisible God. Those who overcome are of resurrection and put on perfection when sanctified wholly by the Holy Spirit of God to become sons of God and heirs of the Kingdom of God, to go out no more. We become members of the Holy Ghost, the host of heaven.

    ==========================================================

    DHK says:
    It says, we are caught up together in the clouds with them who are fallen asleep in Jesus (have physically died: 1Cor.11:30; James 2:26)--the spirit is separated from the body

    It says: then we who are alive and remain shall be caught-up together with THEM IN THE CLOUDS.........
    Them in the clouds are those who are "asleep in Jesus" (have passed away, departed) are already with the Lord, who God brings with Him.

    When born again believers go to be with the Lord ("falls asleep")........we are absent from the body and present with the Lord (2 Corinthians 5:8). One of Dr. Charles Stanley's favorite verses.

    Those who are ALIVE (born of the Spirit and spiritually alive in Christ) and remain, are caught-up together with those already departed ("asleep"). We emphasize those who are ALIVE, because not all believers are spiritually alive. They may have the Spirit and power to become born of the Spirit as a child of God, but not until they repent and confess their sins unto being forgiven of all trespasses. We are saved by faith, but just to believe that is not good enough to be born of the Spirit if we are unwilling to repent and confess our trespasses. Just because we believe and accept Jesus Christ died for our sins does not mean He has forgiven us.

    Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, (Acts 3:19a).
    If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (1 John 1:9)
    .......with the mouth confession is made unto salvation (Romans 10:10).
    "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. (Acts 2:38).
    (The Lord is) not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9).
    Repentance is not merely acknowledging our sins, but an attitude of heart to truly turn from them; followed by His cleansing (purging/purifying) us of them as we continue to confess them and exert our will to turn from them.

    Those who are ALIVE and remain is speaking about believers that are spiritually alive in Christ, because those who are "fallen asleep" do not remain, we go to be with the Lord. We refrain from using the term "fallen asleep" as being synonymous with the word "died", because we already died with Christ (and have eternal life) when we were saved by being quickened together with His Spirit.

    ==========================================================

    DHK says:
    The we is our bodies. It is speaking of the rapture. It is speaking of the rapture. In some way, not explicitly explained to man God will unite our spirits with out bodies and we will be with the Lord forever more.

    The "we" is speaking of those who are spiritually alive in Christ and remain.
    We read, 1400 years after Ephraem of Nisbis in 373 A.D., there appeared an allusion to the Rapture in a book written in 1788 by a Catholic priest named Emmanuel Lacunza and published in Spain in 1812. John Darby, a Brethren preacher, taught the Rapture doctrine in 1827. The evangelist, William Blackstone popularized Rapture doctrine in his best seller, "Jesus is Coming." The Rapture doctrine entered mainstream Christianity with its inclusion in the Scofield Reference Bible. There is no real history to the Rapture doctrine until the 1800's.

    The "rapture" is a theology created to explain particular verses of Scripture, but as we know, there is no word "rapture" in the Bible.

    Here are some thought to consider. For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens (2 Corinthians 5:1).

    When we "fall asleep" or put off our earthen body, it decomposes and becomes part of the earth again. And what about bodies laid to rest perhaps 1000 years ago; where is it now? Perhaps it washed away by rains and was scattered; perhaps it surfaced because of wind erosion, construction, an earthquake, or whatever; perhaps it became the soil of a field that brought forth grain that became the body of another believer or unbeliever; or perhaps it became foliage that was consumed by some beast that became became food for another animal or human being.

    The "dead in Christ" are not those who are "falled asleep" in Jesus, or who have "passed away", the "dead in Christ" are those who have the Spirit of Christ that are spiritually dead because they either have not believed, or they have not repented and confessed their sins to be forgiven of all trespasses and made alive in Christ; or perhaps they are believers that have not been saved by the grace of God for their faith because they have been following "law-like" doctrine.

    There is more to follow. It would not all fit on one reply.

    Take care, and God bless.
     
  16. Dan Edwin

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    DHK says:
    "We died with him" These are your words, not the Bible's.

    These were our words, based upon:
    How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? (Romans 6:2b)

    Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? (Romans 6:3)

    Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. (Romans 6:4)

    It took me fifteen years to understand Romans 6, and to explain this would be another thread that would take many posts to explain. But without getting into it, Paul is talking about being baptized into Jesus Christ by the Holy Ghost. We are not baptized into Jesus Christ with water.

    For as yet He (Holy Ghost - Spirit of Christ) had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus (Acts 8:16).

    For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have all been made to drink into one Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:13).

    "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38).

    buried with Him (His Spirit - not water) in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead (Colossians 2:12).
    Let's not get into this any more just now; let's take one thing at a time.




    For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God (Colossians 3:3).

    DHK says: More accurately the KJV says "for ye are dead," meaning that now you are separated from the world and sin, and separated unto Christ, wherin your life ought to be hid.

    The NKJV says: you died; the old KJV says: you are dead. The actual Greek word is a verb.
    For you died (G599)..........(Colossians 3:3).
    G599
    Thayer Definition:
    1) to die
    1a) of the natural death of man
    1b) of the violent death of man or animals
    1c) to perish by means of something
    1d) of trees which dry up, of seeds which rot when planted
    1e) of eternal death, to be subject to eternal misery in hell
    Part of Speech: verb
    A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G575 and G2348


    In comparion with:
    .........and the "dead" (G3498) in Christ shall rise first: (1 Thessalonians 4:16).

    G3498
    Thayer Definition:
    1) properly
    1a) one that has breathed his last, lifeless
    1b) deceased, departed, one whose soul is in heaven or hell
    1c) destitute of life, without life, inanimate

    2) metaphorically
    2a) spiritually dead
    2a1) destitute of a life that recognises and is devoted to God, because given up to trespasses and sins
    2a2) inactive as respects doing right
    2b) destitute of force or power, inactive, inoperative

    Part of Speech: adjective

    This is the "dead" in Christ we are referring to. The "dead in Christ" began to rise from being spiritually dead in Christ at the reformation, when repentant believers received the grace of God for their faith to be quickened together with the Spirit of Christ. This too is another thread which gets into the meaning of the books of Daniel and Revelation.

    In brief: Just as the Mosaic Law was added because of transgression 430 years after the covenant of faith between Abraham and God; so also, 62 weeks = 434 years after the coming of Messiah, the Spirit of Christ was cut off from being received by faith when God sent the strong delusion through the authority of the bishop of Rome (because of the overspreading of abominations) as damnation unto those who would not receive the love of the truth (Jesus Christ) so they might be saved. Times and laws were changed and the holy people (people of the Romans Empire living corrupt lives) were "destroyed" peacefully with doctrine when the catechism and excommunication were brought in to contain the transgressions of the people. The rest of the "dead in Christ" did not live again, (were not quickened together with the Spirit) for a 1000 years, until the time of the reformation when the people began to receive the word of God and truth again.

    Then those from the peoples, tribes, tongues, and nations will see their dead bodies (spiritually dead but physically alive) three-and-a-half days (= 1260 years), and not allow their dead bodies to be put into graves (Revelation 11:9). The two prophets being the wild olive tree (Gentiles) and the good olive tree (Isreal) in Christ. And that's enough of that for now too.

    Trust the Lord, take care, and God bless.
     
  17. DHK

    DHK
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    Neither is the word "trinity" in the Bible, and for that fact "theology" isn't in the Bible either. Should we therefore stop "studying about God"???
    People who do not believe in a pre-trib rapture try to use history to prove their point. It works against them, not for them:
    http://www.grantjeffrey.com/article/why_some_reject.htm

    Your resources, which you tried to use to disprove the rapture only gives more evidence of how widely the doctrine was believed.
     
  18. Dan Edwin

    Dan Edwin
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    Neither pray I for these alone, but also for them which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as You, Father, are in me, and I in You, that they also may be one in Us: that the world may believe that You have sent me. And the glory which You have given me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and You in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that You have sent me, and have loved them, as You have loved me (John 17:2-23). This prayer is fulfilled by the Son of God and God our Father being within all who profess Jesus is the Son of God.

    Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. (1 John 4:15), and;
    He that believes on the Son of God has the witness in himself: he that does not believe God has made Him a liar; because he does not believe the record that God gave of His Son. And this is the record, that God has given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that has the Son has life (God); and he that does not have the Son of God does not have life. These things have I written to you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may believe on the name of the Son of God (1 John 5:10-13).

    GOD IS IN US AND WE ARE IN GOD

    The next two verses show, “Jesus dwells in God”, and “We dwell in God”, and,
    The Holy Spirit of God is in Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit of God is in us.

    He who has seen Me has seen the Father (John 14:9a).
    Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father in Me? (John 14:10a)
    (1a) When Jesus said, “I am in the Father”, He was saying, I dwell in God,
    Who “holds” Me in this body, which is the “hand” of God our Father.
    (2a) When Jesus said, “the Father (dwells) in me”, He was saying the Holy Spirit of God our Father dwells within My body with Me.

    The previous verse and the following verse correlate for all who confess Jesus is the Son of God.
    Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwells in him, and he (dwells) in God (1 John 4:15).
    (1b) “God dwells in him” is saying, the Holy Spirit of God our Father dwells in our body with us; and
    (2b) “he (dwells) in God” is saying, we dwell in God, Who “holds” us in our body, which is the “hand” of God our Father.

    In summarization:
    (1a) Jesus Christ is in God our Father, just as (2b) we are in God our Father, and
    (2a) God our Father dwells in Jesus Christ, just as (1b) God our Father dwells in us.

    Jesus said, I am in God and God is in me, just as we are in God and God is in us.

    "YET ONCE MORE I SHAKE NOT ONLY THE EARTH, BUT ALSO HEAVEN" (Hebrews 12:26).

    Blessed are the pure in heart, For they shall see God (Matthew 5:8).

    But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, (Ephesians 2:4)

    See what a great love God our Father has for us; He is always with us, protecting us, teaching us, loving us and meeting all our needs.

    I and My Father are one" (John 10:30); just as we (us) and are Father (God) are one.

    Take care, and trust the Lord.
     
  19. Dan Edwin

    Dan Edwin
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    We have begun to explain the meaning of prophecy from Daniel and Revelation, the resurrection, the "rapture", and how we are "changed", but can we "hear" the trump of God if we are unwilling to consider what is presented.

    For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him the Son of Man also will be ashamed when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels." (Mark 8:38)

    Take care, and trust the Lord.
     
  20. DHK

    DHK
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    Dan, Who is: "WE"?
     

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