The deity of Christ?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Jarthur001, Apr 4, 2011.

  1. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001
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  2. ReformedBaptist

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    I think the reasoning states too much. I do think evangelical non-calvinists are inconsistent, and perhaps based on the video an argument could be made for inconsistency.

    But to suggest that it amounts to a denial of the deity of Christ is a stretch to say the least.
     
  3. revmwc

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    I am an evangelical non-calvanist and I am not an Armenian. I believe in the diety of Christ, I believe on is saved by Grace through Faith. I also believe that God did not will certain people to be saved and certain to be lost. I believe that God foreknew the decisions we would make and therefore predestinated all who would believe to be made in the image of Christ upon Salvation. The position was reserved for us. Jesus was both God and man. His Father was God and he therefore took on the nature of His Father Diety, and he had a human mother and had a human body making him totally human and totally God. That was the only way He could be our Saviour He had to bypass the earthly father who passes the Sin Nature to his son, Christ had no Old Sin Nature in Him because of his miraculous birth. So how does that make an evangelical non-Calvanist inconsistent? I am Pauline in doctrine I believe the teachings of Paul but most of all I believe in inherency of Scripture as inspired by the Holy Spirit.
     
  4. Van

    Van
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    This is a guilt by association attempt to put down those who disagree with Calvinism's view of atonement. No support was offered, just the uninspired words of folks vilifying other folks.

    Lets talk about the argument that if God chose to save those whose faith He credits as righteousness, makes God less powerful. At it core, if God does not bend to the Calvinist view, then God is not God. Not much depth to that line of argument.

    Next, the old stalking horse for Calvinistic limited atonement, penal substitution is trotted out yet again. Calvinism says Jesus did not lay down His life as a ransom for all, because then if He did not save everyone, He is not powerful enough to save whom He chooses. Pure twaddle folks. An argument from the dark ages. What if Jesus died in behalf of the world, all mankind to provide the propitiation for everyone who believes. So he did not to pay the penalty for your specific sins, or my specific sins on the cross, no He became the propitiation so that anyone spiritually placed in Christ has their sins forgiven.

    The Calvinistic view of Limited reconciliation demonstrates an ends driven theology making scripture to no effect. Words are redefined, and verses nullified.
     
    #4 Van, Apr 4, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 4, 2011
  5. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001
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    did you watch the video?
     
  6. Jarthur001

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    [
    Evey person that I have met that says this, turns out to be Arminian.

    Good
    Arminian

    Arminian

    to much to cover.

    Paul believed in the doctrines of grace as do Calvinist

    BTW...DID YOU WATCH THE VIDEO?
     
  7. ReformedBaptist

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    Yes, I did.
     
  8. revmwc

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    No time right now I will later. Most folks Calvanist and Armenian don't realize that there are folks who hold to neither view. Arminian doctrine as you label it has it's flaws, Calvanistic doctrine is also flawed. So I go to scripture not men who developed systematic theories that don't correspond to the writters of the New Testament nor the old but instead hold thier own view of the scripture. Every denomination has it's roots from someone in the reformation period, some Baptist and Presbytrians hold to Calvins teaching, others to Joseph Arminious. They overlook totlally the true teachings of Paul and the Holy Spirit and put their belief in a man who centuries after Paul worte scripture developed their belief system. I choose the Pauline label in order to keep from being called a Calvanist or an Arminian because I don't hold to either doctrine.
     
  9. ReformedBaptist

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    Well, how about you enlighten us as to the Pauline doctrine of Predestination.
     
  10. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire
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    This ones like shooting fish in a barrel James..... Let him go.

    Obviously a young in the faith Christian.
     
  11. Jarthur001

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    revmwc,

    I think most of us that have debated these things do realize this. What I have always found is that those that claim "I'm not a Calvinist, nor a Arminian" always turn out to be Arminian. Now you have a good chance to prove me wrong, but so far what you have stated you are indeed Arminian.

    Its hard to diagree with this. :)
    Well, lets talk about this for a bit. : Lets start with one doctrine...you tell me what you don't like.....then tell me where your support is and i'll see if I can address your concerns. Maybe you can teach me.


    I hope you know that both Arminian and Calvinism base their systems on Scripture too.

    Now see....we do agree on something. But this does not leave a 3rd area.

    This I will fully disagree with. A true Calvinist and Arminian theologain does worship a man. They don't hold to a doctrine just because some man says it. Now it is true that many today just follow men....I'll give you that. But many today are Pelagian. I hope you do not see this as a 3rd system that a believe can hold to. I believe Pelagianism is far outside the church and is of the devil. This is not Arminianism, but freewillism.


    :)
     
  12. Earth Wind and Fire

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    OK, however I consider myself Pauline & Im an Orthodox Christian. How do you clarify that ?
     
  13. Jarthur001

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    are you saying its over the top? baseless? He has no good argument?

    It kinda sounds like what I have held on here from "the other side".

    like...Calvinism is a false doctrine. :)
     
  14. JesusFan

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    One can sincerely disagree with how they interprete the doctrines of election/predestination/, but every reputable Arminian teacher/preacher of the Bible would hold to the doctrine of the Diety of Jesus Christ!

    There is NOTHING in that system of theology that would force one to deny that essential Christian truth..

    And no, denying limited atonement does NOT make one not believe in Jesus as being God!
     
  15. revmwc

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    I believe Paul made it fairly clear, whom HE Foreknow them did HE Predestinate.
    That is kinda simple isn't it?
    Romans 8: 29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

    30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

    31What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

    32He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

    33Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

    34Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

    35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

    36As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

    37Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

    38For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

    39Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    Looks very simple because God knew the choice you and I would make he predestinated us and called us. He provided Grace when Christ was "delivered him up for us all" All mankind.

    Romans 6: 10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
    Christ death paid the price for all sin PAST, PRESENT and FUTURE of all mankind. The issue is not now a sin issue it is a SON issue, have you received Christ as your Saviour or have you rejected Him. If you reject you are eternally seperated from God in the Lake of Fire. If you accept you take your place in the family of God, the place that was Predestined for you because of God's foreknowledge that you would choose Christ.
    Very simple.
     
  16. revmwc

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    Clarify Orthodox Christian please.
     
  17. revmwc

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    I said some follow Calvin and Some Arminia, I failed to say Some hold to neither. Some hold onto the 3rd Pauline view of the bible. Paul teaching as most of the New Testament is and the other authors were clearly inspired by the Holy Spirit to write.
     
  18. JesusFan

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    hope that we are not saying that IF one holds to Calvinism, is orthodox, while someone holding more to Free Will side is not...

    believe in TULIP, but that does not make me a "better" Christian than someone who does not adhere to that belief

    DO believe in area of HOW God chose to apply grace/savation, Reformed view superior to free Will Advocates BUT

    Don't say I am orthodox and they are not, just that my view is "different" than theirs..

    What is orthodox any ways, other than adhering to the core essentials of faith?
    I am pre trib/pre mill Tulip Christian, who believes in spritual gifts fortoday...

    Would that be considered being "orthodox?"
     
  19. Earth Wind and Fire

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    My dogs barking to go out so tell me how youd interpret John 6:44 & 1 Cor 2:14

    44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them

    14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.
     
  20. revmwc

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    I have been saved for well over 40 years. Was taught in a Bible believing Church where we studied book by book verse by verse. Some folks want to assume that others are young or unlearned simply becuase they don't agree with thier doctrinal stance. I believe if we are Christians we should be able to discuss our views and find common ground. Christ is the common ground and we as believers if we are believers have one thing we can agree, Christ died for our sins, He paid the price and none of us deserved to be saved but because of God's Grace we are saved.
    Quick to judgement here it seems.
     

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