The difference between Calvinists and Armenians (as I see it)

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Dale-c, Jul 18, 2006.

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  1. Dale-c

    Dale-c
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    There seems to be tons of debate between Calvinists and Arminians and the theology that goes with it.

    Though many do not claim either title, all are on one side or the other of a basic fence.


    We all believe that we must believe on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.
    We all believe that we must preach to gospel to the lost.
    We all believe that anyone who comes to Christ by faith WILL be saved!
    We all believe that salvation is by grace through faith.


    SO, where do we differ?

    Whether or not those that come are on their own or by the quickening power of God, that God has opened their eyes.

    That is the fence that it all comes down to.
    There are minor differences within that, but that is the main thing IMO.

    Do you all agree? At least on WHAT the differences are that is :)
    We will never all agree on everything!
     
    #1 Dale-c, Jul 18, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 18, 2006
  2. Rippon

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    Dale , first please spell it Arminian . Those poor residents of Armenia are getting rather upset with you .
     
  3. Dale-c

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    Oops. sorry. My spell check got the wrong one.
    Seems that the nationality is in the database but the theology isn't :)

    Eye have a spelling chequer
    It came with my pea sea
    It plainly marques four my revue
    Miss steaks eye kin knot sea.
    Eye strike a key and type a word
    And weight four it two say
    Weather eye am wrong oar write.
    It shows me strait a weigh.
    As soon as a mist ache is maid
    It nose bee fore two long
    and eye can put the error rite.
    Its rare lea ever wrong.
    Eye have run this poem threw it
    I am shore your pleased two no
    Its letter perfect awl the weigh
    My chequer tolled me sew.
     
  4. Brother Bob

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    You list the Arminiams believe they come on their own and that is not what we believe.
    Our belief is that we have a choice and choose to believe in Christ and by believing God sees us choose Him and believe so He calls us, and predestinates us to be conformed to the image of His Son (Christ like), Justifies us (by the blood of Christ) and Glorifies us which we haven't seen yet but God has for He sees all things and is Omnipresent and infinite. God is an all knowing and all seeing God. Salvation is of the Lord. Man can not save himself but it is now and always has been "faith" (to believe).
     
    #4 Brother Bob, Jul 18, 2006
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  5. Blammo

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    Dale - I don't think that is where we differ.

    Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

    I thank God for the gospel of Christ.

    Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

    I know I would not be saved if not for Christ dying for my sins. I know I would not know of the gospel if God had not sent a preacher. I know the Holy Spirit of God was working on me when I finally was humbled enough to turn from myself and believe. I give all credit to God for my salvation.

    I think the difference between us is:

    You believe God selected certain people to save. I believe God offers salvation to every man. It is not God's fault if anyone rejects the gospel and goes to hell. See, if you believe God chose certain people to save, by default, you have to believe He chose certain people to suffer eternal punishment. I don't believe that.
     
  6. Dale-c

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    Clarification, I didn't mean to imply that you all believed that you saved yourself.

    The whole point is that we all believe that we are saved the same way, with the difference being whether man can choose without God's quickening and if God actually chooses who He will save.


    The point I am making as well is that we believe that all that believe WILL be saved.
    God will not turn anyone away, and God doesn't force anyone NOT to be saved, only that their own sinful condition does.
     
  7. webdog

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    I don't know, not offering man an opportunity for salvation...or giving him the "regeneration" (as you guys call it) needed to come, pretty much seals their fate. Sounds like "force" to me.
     
  8. Tom Butler

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    Here's one difference between Calvinists and Arminians:

    Calvinists believe God chooses those whom he will save for reasons known only to him, not based on any human merit. God is the actor from beginning to end, complete with the regeneration by the Holy Spirit, bringing the lost person under the preaching of the gospel, illimuninating, drawing, convicting and the giving of repentance and faith.

    Brother Bob has stated the Arminian/non-Calvinist position:
    "Our belief is that we have a choice and choose to believe in Christ and by believing God sees us choose Him and believe so He calls us, and predestinates us to be conformed to the image of His Son (Christ like), Justifies us (by the blood of Christ) and Glorifies us which we haven't seen yet but God has for He sees all things and is Omnipresent and infinite. God is an all knowing and all seeing God. Salvation is of the Lord. Man can not save himself but it is now and always has been "faith" (to believe)."

    That is, Arminians believe they have the power to elect themselves.
     
  9. Dale-c

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    Let's say five people are walking towards a big pit.

    They all want to fall into this big pit.

    One person keeps 3 of them from falling.
    One they realize what would have happend they are thankful.
    The others are told but do not understand. They don't WANT to understand.
    They jump in the pit and are killed. Now, did the person who saved the others from falling force the two in? no, he just didn't keep them FROM falling.

    BTW, there is a scriptural reference for this:
    17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
    18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 1


    See, we are all condemned already since Adam and God came to save some of us.
    There is a sense in which yes, He does make the wicked for the day of destruction but predestination and election are really FOR the elect more so than against the non elect.

    And again, God does not reject ANYONE from coming to Him.

    See, if a man truly belies, that is evidence that he really is one of the elect and has been born again.

    There is no doubting whether one is saved or not. If you truly believe and have faith, that is the evidence that God has given you that faith.
     
  10. Brother Bob

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    remove post!!!
     
    #10 Brother Bob, Jul 18, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 18, 2006
  11. LeBuick

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    So much for the fence!
     
  12. Dale-c

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    Yeah! :)

    I think Tom had it pretty well.
    I am not sure what Bob didn't like about that post...that is exactly what Bob has been saying all this time.
     
  13. Brother Bob

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    It is not what Bob is said all along and "get it right or don't say it". I said we must believe never have I said we "elect" ourselves.
    The whole Bible says "you must believe" if you guys don't want to accept what the Bible says then that is your problem.
     
  14. Pipedude

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    The essence of Arminianism is the doctrine that Christ died for everyone, and not only for the elect. Historically it went under the name "general redemption," distinguishing it from the doctrine of particular redemption.

    How this works itself out is a theological conundrum. It involves the question of volition itself: how can there be such a thing? How can God, for instance, decide one thing or another if he is eternal? Eternality would seem to lead logically to a static being, totally contrary to the one presented in Scripture.

    Man, bearing the image of God, also has this mysterious quality called volition and the corresponding moral responsibility, unlike the animal kingdom. (No one considers a dog immoral if he kills a squirrel.)

    One goal of theology is to explain one thing without contradicting another. Arminians start with general redemption. We can sincerely tell a bum on the street "God loves you and Christ died for you." We see a God in scripture who acts in space and time, makes decisions, and responds (as he sovereignly chooses) to man's actions. Because we stress these things, we wind up being anticalvinists.

    There. That clears it up. Now we won't need to discuss Calvinism and Arminianism any more.
    .
    .
    .
    :smilewinkgrin:
     
  15. Rippon

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    Be careful that you don't confuse philosophy with theology .
     
  16. Dale-c

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    So you do believe that God elects some to salvation before they are even born?

    You don't like the term used but that IS what you believe.
     
  17. Brother Bob

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    Thank Pipedude;
    What I said but no where near as eloquent.
     
  18. Brother Bob

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    Please explain yourself. Where do I say that?
     
  19. Dale-c

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    Bob, you say GOd sees what we choose and then predestinates us.
    Therefore, we elect ourselves for predestination.
    NOw, you may not like the term, but I think that is the idea.

    You believe that it is mans choice that gets him into the whole predestination/election process so therefor, he elects himself.
    NOT saves himself, just that he Elects himself FOR salvation from God.
    I think that is what you believe.
     
  20. Tom Butler

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    Brother Bob and I have exchanged private messages about this quote, so I'll clarify for everybody. It is my one-line paraphrase of the Arminian position.

    Brother Bob did not say that, and doesn't believe it. We both believe salvation is by grace through faith in the Lord Jesus.

    The OP is not about salvation, it's about election. Arminianism holds that God foresees a man's choice, elects him in response. Technically, God elects, but is powerless to do so without man's choice. Choice, then election.

    Dr. Bob would say that I am wrong. What say the rest of you?
     
    #20 Tom Butler, Jul 18, 2006
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