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The Dispensation of Optional Obedience

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by lifeandliberty, Apr 5, 2005.

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  1. lifeandliberty

    lifeandliberty New Member

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    I once heard a sermon in which the minister exhorted the congregation to be diligent in their witness because “as goes the church, so goes the world”. I wish it was true, but the opposite is most often the case.

    We believers have been in a race with the world for centuries. We’re just as serious about staying on course and pressing on for the “prize” as the most degraded runner in this competition. But there is a catch. We are not running to win. We are striving for the silver medal. Our sights are set for second place. As we progress along this long track we are sure to stay twenty or thirty yards behind our opponent, “The World”. As “The World” passes each milestone and obstacle he is cheered or booed by those who have gathered to witness this event. Whether the witnesses of his great achievement are for or against him they all can be heard commenting with amazement on the fact that he has come so far and wonder just how far he will have the nerve to go. Since most of the audience has gathered to cheer on the winner, they often overlook us as we pass the same post a short time later. But we’re not bothered because we aren’t running for the attention, just the satisfaction we gain from running this same course. After all, we can still enjoy all of the same sights and sounds as our opponent, “The World”. Those who do notice us can often hear us speaking breathlessly against our foe. We mock and condemn him for running this race but then become silent as we must run harder just to keep up. We’ll deny that we are competing but we wear the attire and the number of a runner.

    How often have our attitudes and way of life been indistinguishable from those of the world. Our convictions are often similar to those of the wicked just ten to twenty years ago. Surely we stand as a light and salt, after all we aren’t nearly as carnally minded as those around us… right?

    Some of us have dropped out of the race and have been labeled as “those who have turned aside” or “those who have not stayed faithful to finish the course. We of course see things differently. We’ve come to realize that the prize for completing this race is death. There is no gold, silver or bronze, but one prize for all.

    Father Yahweh has a standard that doesn’t change with each passing generation.

    Integration and accommodation may work for mainline denominations and Latin American Catholicism but it is foreign and antithetical to true Biblical Faith.

    I’m as guilty as the next person who spent years living as a “Good Christian” without seriously challenging the practices I was taught to accept. There’s a real reformation taking place now. It’s picking up where the last reformation left off. Many of Yahweh’s people are reexamining what they have been taught. That which is consistent with the complete counsel of Scripture is being grasped while that which is merely the doctrine of men (and often opposed to scripture) is being discarded.

    One issue in which we have clearly followed the lead of the world is concerning the matter of child prevention. It would seem that we live in a new and glorious era, the
    “Dispensation of Optional Obedience”. Clear commands once heeded without question are now discarded as purely optional. Could it be that our views and convictions are much more dictated by this wicked society than they are by the one who is the Way, the Truth and the Life? The world has taken the lead and we strive to keep up.

    I’m sure we would all say that abortion is murder. That is one path the world has taken that we are sure to avoid, or are we? Killing for one’s convenience is always immoral regardless of the methodology. Surely poisoning is just as deadly as dismemberment. The end result is always the same. In recent years it has become public knowledge that most forms of child prevention (birth control) have the potential of actually killing a newly created baby. The Pill, Norplant, Depo-Provera and the IUD are all devices of death that take millions of lives each year. Despite these facts, which are easily obtained, scores of “Bible believing” people volunteer daily to be implanted, stuck or gagged by an assortment of “Child Prevention” products.

    There is a problem here.

    Let us just assume that none of the thousands of people that claim to be led by the “Spirit” have taken the time to read about the drugs and devices they consume. One could argue that ignorance, not rebellion, is to blame. Would this exempt us from the enormous weight of bloodguilt that we have heaped upon ourselves? I have observed during my years in Pro-Life ministry that Apathy and Convenience play a much greater part in the death of pew babies than simple ignorance of the facts.

    I’m 100% Pro-Life, it’s just those darn kids I can’t stand!

    There is a far greater evil at work in our hearts than a lack of knowledge. Children have become a burden rather than a blessing to our social, familial and ministerial well being. An anti-child mentality has gripped the body even as it has the world. As we’ve sought after the world’s blessings we’ve only found Yahweh’s curses. The only eternal gift we can bestow upon our Father has become a burden and a curse in our own eyes. The blessing is perceived as a burden. When we deny the Father the very fruit of marriage, we embrace the curse. Debt and infertility were declared to be curses upon Israel when they turned from obedience to Torah (Deut.28). Today the body sees debt as a way of life and stands in line to become enslaved. Those who by Yahweh’s grace have been blessed with a number of children are often looked upon with contempt by those in their own fellowship. “Thus saith Yahweh” has been replaced with “hath God said” in our pulpits and in our homes. Simple obedience to simple commands has become simply optional.


    Let us consider that if the command to be fruitful and multiply has been nullified isn’t it likely that the other commands are also suspect? After all, only time and worldly influence has effected our consideration of this mandate. The Scriptures are clear on this point. Read Gen. 1:28, 9:1, 49:25; Ex 23:26; Deut. 7:13-14, 28:4, 28:11; Ps. 127:3-5; Ps. 128:3-4.

    As we seek out truth in the Scriptures let us renew our view of children. In His book they are seen as gifts, blessings and rewards from Yahweh. We are to be fruitful! We should gladly receive and seek after His blessings. Some say that they refrain from receiving more children because they can’t afford another. This is a true insult to the Father. Do we believe that Yahweh cares for and will provide for His own? Do those “cattle on a thousand hills” only come into play when we’re seeking material gain? Our loving Father will meet every need of His people. Yahshua said so and I believe he said it because it was true not because he ran out of neat things to say (Matt. 6:25-33). We can always think of a thousand and one ‘reasons” why we shouldn’t simply obey in the area of childbearing. Yahweh honors the faith of those who don’t reason away obedience. It has been said that the same attitude toward children that leads people into the abortion clinic is found in the heart of the Christian who does everything possible to prevent them from being conceived in the first place. Pregnancy has become little more than an unfortunate mistake even in the bed of the Elect. We’ve lost sight of the heart and mind of Yahweh, as we become so much like His enemy.

    As we live our lives in this present “Dispensation of Optional Obedience” let us never be found in a foot race with the world. The true prize can only be obtained as we press on against the flow of the world and sadly sometimes even the flow and stance of the “Church”. It took a reformation of the mind on my part to see children as the Father sees them, but now that I do, I can’t get enough! Bless me Yahweh!

    By Dennis E. Green
    Life and Liberty Ministries
     
    #1 lifeandliberty, Apr 5, 2005
  2. Dan Todd

    Dan Todd Active Member

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    Dennis - Thank you for that message.

    I took a brief look at your website - and found it to be filled with lots of good stuff.

    Keep up the good work!
     
    #2 Dan Todd, Apr 5, 2005
  3. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    This is an interesting thread on "having as many children as biology will support" rather than actually using your mind to plan.

    My two cats have been surgically altered so their biology does not allow them to go very far in that direction. That is because I assume they operate on the same principle you have identified above "go as far as biology will permit". We see the mice doing that, and the deer population and of course dogs and cats do it so we simply "curb their biology".

    Obviously in those case - "biology" is the "brains" used to decide what will happen and how many offspring will be born to each individual.

    The question for humans is -- shoud we be using our brains in those situations for our own family or should we function like the family cat in that regard.

    As you point out - God is the author of life. But I weed the garden and I weed the yard EVEN while giving God all the credit for the life of the weeds and the flowers, the weeds and the grass.

    In many countries of the world - children are born only to starve to death slowly or die of malnutrition in an overpopulated area. God not only knows about each of those precious souls - He also knows the future.

    (Hence the Hindu and Buddhist idea of Carma (?sp))

    I agree completely with your view that to reject the commandments of God is to invite moral decay in the church. It is happening all the time.

    I also see the wisdom in having aggrarian societies have lots of working children. Massive local resources and plenty of time spent with the chilrden each day. "The brain" can approve of such supply-and-demand balance.

    But rats and cats do not take that into consideration -- they simply over-populate until an unbalanced situation (lack of resources) previails so that starvation sets the biological boundaries.

    The orphanages are full, the starving countries of the world are leaving their children in the streets. The world if FULL of children needing homes.

    So what is your "biology" doing about that?

    Nothing.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #3 BobRyan, Apr 17, 2005
  4. av1611jim

    av1611jim New Member

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    I object Bob. I object very strongly.
    What I see in your "reasoned" reply is that you are equating "rats and cats" with people. I may be mistaken. I am sometimes ya' know. ;)

    You have jumped from starving children in the streets and equated that with what the author has said. I don't think he has said that at all.
    You very first sentence demonstrates your mind-set, and it is the mindset that the author has addressed. "Family planning" instead of "family blessing".

    I agree with the OP completely. The church has bought another lie of the world.

    Overpopulation. Family planning. Limited resources. Starving children. Orphanages. All these terms are the worlds way of exciting emotion rather than obedience to God.

    The question for humans is not as you state it; "The question for humans is -- shoud we be using our brains in those situations for our own family or should we function like the family cat in that regard." It appears that you are falling into the mindset which is condemned by God. Human reasoning instead of faith in God to provide. God has said, obey Me and I will provide your every need. Yet the current mindset in the church is "Trust in your own self and you will direct your paths and acknowledge your own wisdom and it will look like you are doing God's will."

    Nope. I don't think God was wasting paper when it was written, "Ps 127:3
    Lo, children are an heritage of the LORD: and the fruit of the womb is his reward.
    Ps 127:4
    As arrows are in the hand of a mighty man; so are children of the youth.
    Ps 127:5
    Happy is the man that hath his quiver full of them: they shall not be ashamed, but they shall speak with the enemies in the gate."

    No sign of "don't have too many kids because you will be wasting resources, starving kids, orphanages, kids running in the streets, etc..." in this passage.

    Your last sentence is quite revealing. "So what is your "biology" doing about that? " Right back at'cha Bob. What are you doing about Third world children in the streets? I admit, I am not doing as much as I could. But then again, my having 20 children has nothing to do with it. If we (my wife and I) are blessed with 20, then it is God doing the blessing. But if not, then so be it. I think any form of "child prevention" is stepping into a realm which is not ours to be in. For that is exactly what the alternative is. Child prevention. Put into that light it should be quite easy to see the error. Child prevention is the same as "family planning".

    In HIS service;
    Jim
     
    #4 av1611jim, Apr 17, 2005
  5. av1611jim

    av1611jim New Member

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    One more comment.

    We either obey God in every area of our lives or we don't. If we fail to obey in just ONE area, then we are guilty of all.

    In HIS service;
    Jim
     
    #5 av1611jim, Apr 17, 2005
  6. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    I am saying that "some" animals simply limit their breeding volume by "what biology will stand" and are only stopped by starvation and predation.

    As you point out - I would certainly hope that humans would rise above that level of behavior.

    I agree - I don't think the author is thinking of it at all in the OP. That is why I am bringing it up. It is "A consequence" of the "Breed 'till biology cries uncle" approach.

    I agree that "planning" is being placed on one side - and the blessings of biology "from the giver of life" are being placed on the other side.

    The OP tries to place thought And biological blessing in opposition. I am trying to defuse that idea.

    I think there are a number of other people that would agree with the OP as well.


    I am saying there is a connection between populating and OVER-populating. I don't think the OP is interested in exploring that basic concept.

    I also agree with your statement that the OP seeks to villanize thought/planning and the idea that populating and OVERpopulating are related to each other - by assigning it to "evil". The idea is that "only bad people" would notice that fact.

    My response is that we ALL "notice that fact" in every day life so I use several examples of LIFE where only the LIFE-GIVER can be the source of that LIFE -- but we still use thought to create a balance in LIFE.

    Bob said
    "The question for humans is -- shoud we be using our brains in those situations for our own family or should we function like the family cat in that regard."

    Again - you are imputing evil to the idea that humans would act any different than the family cat.

    I don't think that is justified. You are making "thought and reason" evil and placing faith on the other side AS IF it is "unfaithful" to think. (At least for this specific topic)

    I don't think that is ever the approach that God used.

    Lets take a simple example.

    In the garden God said that Adam and Eve were to "eat of the fruit of the garden". But as it turns out they also had brains. They were not commanded to "eat until biology won't let you eat any more". Gluttony is taking a blessing and then placing the brain on hold so that you 'eat without limit - until biology stops you".

    In the same way God declares sleep to be a blessing. But the abuse of that blessing is to "sleep until biology won't let you sleep any more".

    By the same token - labor is also given as a blessing - but working until you physically drop is not.

    Even worship can be taken to the extremes. Paul would say "if a person won't work - neither let him eat".

    The idea that we should take blessings and abuse them to the point of "biology saying NO MORE" while placing our minds "on hold" is placing "reason" in opposition to "supposed faith"

    I fully agree with all the Bible statements that food and children and sleep and work and worship are all blessings from God. I enjoy them all.

    So also is the mind a gift from God.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #6 BobRyan, Apr 17, 2005
  7. av1611jim

    av1611jim New Member

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    I fail to see the correlation.
    How do you jump from food, sleep, work, worship, to children?
    I don't get that at all.

    Food is a necessity. It can be abused/neglected, but it is still necessary for everyday life.
    Sleep is a necessity. It can be abused/neglected, but it is still necessary for everyday life.
    Work is a necessity. It can be abused/neglected, but it is still necessary for everyday life.

    Worship is different. It is a privilege granted only to the saved people of God. It is not needed for sustaining life. The lost do not worship God, yet they still live everyday lives. Worship is a speacial gift from God.
    Children are different. They are not necessary for our everyday life. While needed for the continuation of the human race, they are not needed to sustain our own lives as is food, sleep, work. Children are a special gift from God.

    As to the stress you make upon over-populating: it is a non-issue when dealing contextually with the OP. Countries which are alledged to be over-populated have much more going on than population and over-crowding issues. And you know that. I don't think they are so much "over-populated" as they are inadequately governed. Hence their food shortages and crowding issues lie not in population but in corruption of government. And I think you know that also. You will also note that most countries suffering from population problems have miles and miles of open land which could sustain their populations if their leaders would lead them properly. So it is not a population problem as much as it is that of government, as I have said already. (did you hear that echo? LOL)

    Your comparisons fail to explain your POV to me.

    Indeed, I am not making thought and reason "evil" (your word not mine). I am actually espousing thought and reason as good things. Think about what God has promised. Reason with your mind about it. Then...believe it and act upon it. God never says limit your family to X number of children that you can afford. Instead what we find is...Be fruitful and multiply and in obeying me you will be blessed beyond measure, pressed down and over flowing. God gave Job 20 children didn't He? 10 at the first, then ten later.

    Seek ye first the Kingdom of God and His righteousness, and ALL these things will be added unto you. Now the question is...do you believe Him or not? Belief is a function of the mind carried out by the actions of the body. Do you believe God will provide or not?

    In HIS service;
    Jim
     
    #7 av1611jim, Apr 18, 2005
  8. billwald

    billwald New Member

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    "We either obey God in every area of our lives or we don't. If we fail to obey in just ONE area, then we are guilty of all."

    Then we all are guilty. Unless we believe in Jesus, of course, then we are all innocent.
     
    #8 billwald, Apr 18, 2005
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